Refugee crisis. Something on the scale of the Marshall plan required?

[pogofish]

I'd like to know what made you think the border was still open.

Seems that whilst they closed the (only recently re-opened) old station at 7am on Tuesday, they didn't order the main station closed until midnight last night:

Hungary’s Minister of Interior ordered a partial border closure at the Röszke-Horgos motorway border crossing station and at the Röszke-Horgos express road border crossing station for a period of 30 days as of 0.00 hours on 17 September 2015 in the interest of the protection of public security.



During the term of the partial border closure, the state border of Hungary will not be available to passengers, vehicles and cargo for crossing on the border section between Hungary and Serbia.

Source: Ministry of Interior

That smacks of "getting them where we want them" to me?

Note that the old station had also been renamed to the "Express" crossing?

 

[elbows]

Thanks for the info.

I can appreciate your theory to the extent that they probably wanted to send a very visible message to those contemplating taking the Hungary route in future.

 

[terapija]

Hitler’s world may not be so far away | Timothy Snyder
everyone should read this

Hedge funds accused of gambling with lives of the poorest as food prices soar
2007–08 world food price crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
the root of the problem

and now the TTIP is coming. more unrestraind capital, fun times ahead

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hitler’s world may not be so far away | Timothy Snyder
everyone should read this

Hedge funds accused of gambling with lives of the poorest as food prices soar
2007–08 world food price crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
the root of the problem

and now the TTIP is coming. more unrestraind capital, fun times ahead

Tim Snyder isn't my "go to" academic for balanced commentary. His books on eastern Europe are rife with selective citations that support his prejudices rather than establish facts.
I say this as someone who's read three of his books, and a dozen or so articles and papers by him.

 

[terapija]

Tim Snyder isn't my "go to" academic for balanced commentary. His books on eastern Europe are rife with selective citations that support his prejudices rather than establish facts.
I say this as someone who's read three of his books, and a dozen or so articles and papers by him.

can you elaborate more on that ...just got myself his latest book

also, have you read the article?

 

[miss direct]

Not being reported much, but in Turkey, Syrians are now not allowed to take intercity buses. Hundreds of people (thousands?) are camping at the main bus station in Istanbul and others have walked to the border.

There's a stand off situation coming up which will probably lead to tear gassing. Not really sure why turkey is suddenly trying to stop these people from leaving.

 

[ViolentPanda]

can you elaborate more on that ...just got myself his latest book

Tim's "speciality" is eastern Europe. He's especially fond of the Habsburg era, and of pre- and post-Soviet Ukraine, and has a reputation for constructing his theses around those fondnesses - citing stuff that when you read the full quote in context, says something completely different to his interpretation - rather than going with the known facts. That's not a sin if you're a history professor introducing new info, but it's not brilliant when your passion for particular types of historical regime bleed into your commentary when you're asked to write a serious article on the situation in Ukraine.

also, have you read the article?

Yep.
I'm just hoping that the book (which is on my "to buy" list) doesn't excuse the Banderisti to the degree that I suspect it will.

 

[Manter]

Tim's "speciality" is eastern Europe. He's especially fond of the Habsburg era, and of pre- and post-Soviet Ukraine, and has a reputation for constructing his theses around those fondnesses - citing stuff that when you read the full quote in context, says something completely different to his interpretation - rather than going with the known facts. That's not a sin if you're a history professor introducing new info, but it's not brilliant when your passion for particular types of historical regime bleed into your commentary when you're asked to write a serious article on the situation in Ukraine.



Yep.
I'm just hoping that the book (which is on my "to buy" list) doesn't excuse the Banderisti to the degree that I suspect it will.

Blood lands was awful. Dire dire dire. But wall around the west, while out of date, is fascinating to re-read now, in light of what is going on.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Blood lands was awful. Dire dire dire. But wall around the west, while out of date, is fascinating to re-read now, in light of what is going on.

The Red Prince is interesting in terms of historic detail regarding Ukraine's attempts to establish itself as a state (although he barely bothers to mention the anarchist/black fighters while going into more detail about the reds and the whites), but he does tend to make excuses for his favoured side. He reminds me a bit of Norman Stone and Bernard Lewis.

 

[Manter]

The Red Prince is interesting in terms of historic detail regarding Ukraine's attempts to establish itself as a state (although he barely bothers to mention the anarchist/black fighters while going into more detail about the reds and the whites), but he does tend to make excuses for his favoured side. He reminds me a bit of Norman Stone and Bernard Lewis.

That book is fascinating tbf.

 

[Manter]

And I must defend Norman stone- I think he is a much better historian- better able to dig out interesting sources and synthesise what he finds in them. Tim Snyder feels more driven by his political agenda (and does get swept up in silly hyperbolic marketing- bloodlands again!) whereas stone feels more careful. More historian-y

 

[ViolentPanda]

And I must defend Norman stone- I think he is a much better historian- better able to dig out interesting sources and synthesise what he finds in them. Tim Snyder feels more driven by his political agenda (and does get swept up in silly hyperbolic marketing- bloodlands again!) whereas stone feels more careful. More historian-y

I remember having an argument with someone about Stone once, and their argument was similar - "but...but...he has gravitas!".

 

[terapija]

Tim's "speciality" is eastern Europe. He's especially fond of the Habsburg era, and of pre- and post-Soviet Ukraine, and has a reputation for constructing his theses around those fondnesses - citing stuff that when you read the full quote in context, says something completely different to his interpretation - rather than going with the known facts. That's not a sin if you're a history professor introducing new info, but it's not brilliant when your passion for particular types of historical regime bleed into your commentary when you're asked to write a serious article on the situation in Ukraine.



Yep.
I'm just hoping that the book (which is on my "to buy" list) doesn't excuse the Banderisti to the degree that I suspect it will.

agree, it's very dangerous when historians turn their work into some sort of propaganda. i've never read any of his books before and tbh i wasn't aware of the whole Bandera issue

 

[Manter]

I remember having an argument with someone about Stone once, and their argument was similar - "but...but...he has gravitas!".

I cba to go and get one of his books to check a quote I am thinking of, they are upstairs, but he is explicit about where he comes from and how that may bias his interpretations. We can't eliminate our own biases, just acknowledge and try and accommodate them... Left or right. Hobsbawn and Hill are as biased as Davies, Hosking, Ferguson etc It's historians who claim to be objective- or just play to the gallery without ever acknowledging they are writing for the NYT bestseller list - that annoy me. All history is political, and personal and by definition unreliable.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I cba to go and get one of his books to check a quote I am thinking of, they are upstairs, but he is explicit about where he comes from and how that may bias his interpretations. We can't eliminate our own biases, just acknowledge and try and accommodate them... Left or right. Hobsbawn and Hill are as biased as Davies, Hosking, Ferguson etc It's historians who claim to be objective- or just play to the gallery without ever acknowledging they are writing for the NYT bestseller list - that annoy me. All history is political, and personal and by definition unreliable.

Absolutely!

 

[editor]

From UK media reports over the last several months; from a report from Red Crescent mentioned onNewsnight; from an article in (IIRC) Der Spiegel's English section.

Obviously, as an American Welshman ---

Unless he has posted any of this personal information here, please desist immediately from bringing up any other similar information. You know the rules on this.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Unless he has posted any of this personal information here, please desist immediately from bringing up any other similar information. You know the rules on this.

Because he doesn't mention being Welsh with US citizenship at all in any of his publicly-readable posts, does he? Not many, Benny!
None of it is "personal", He's gone on about being Welsh born and bred (who could have missed his long spiel about being raised in Wales' "hardest" area - Barry ffs - on this thread), and about being a US citizen across the years on Urban. He's also publicly mentioned taking Turkish citizenship. If he's reported it as me posting up "personal information" he's telling fibs, and if you've simply assumed it's "personal information", you're wrong.

And way to go with picking that up ages after it was posted!

 

[miss direct]

Well this is my friend who left us: To go or not to go: a Syrian asks the question

 

[teqniq]

The EU's stinking refugee deal with Turkey

 

[teqniq]

A Mass Migration Crisis, and It May Yet Get Worse

 

[teqniq]

Refugee crisis: Vancouver Jewish temple raises $40K to sponsor Syrian family

 

[teqniq]

After Attacks, France Increases Its Commitment To Refugees

 

[teqniq]

Meanwhile with the assault on Aleppo by regime forces and their allies there are estimated to be somewhere in the region of 35,000 refugees trapped on the border with Turkey who have fled the fighting.

 

[teqniq]

'Cos that's really going to solve things. Right.

Nato deploys fleet to Aegean Sea 'to end Europe's refugee crisis'

 

[teqniq]

From the man who was once "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich as long as they pay their taxes" though admittedly he has since had second thoughts on that one: Surely Mandelson hasn't acquired a conscience? I am intensely suspicious, Mandelson and ulterior motive spring to mind even if it is only to portray himself in the public eye as more 'caring'. /cynic

Britain is not taking enough Syrian refugees, Peter Mandelson says

 

[Pickman's model]

From the man who was once "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich as long as they pay their taxes" though admittedly he has since had second thoughts on that one: Surely Mandelson hasn't acquired a conscience? I am intensely suspicious, Mandelson and ulterior motive spring to mind even if it is only to portray himself in the public eye as more 'caring'. /cynic

Britain is not taking enough Syrian refugees, Peter Mandelson says

maybe he's just bored.

 

[teqniq]

heh yeah maybe

 

[teqniq]

And these are the people the EU has just done a deal with

Turkish coastguard 'attacks boat packed with refugees'

 

[gosub]

Just listening to ham face in the Commons, this deal. £3bn to be spent in Turkey on refugees. If they make it to Greece, they get sent back if they don't claim asylum, if they do claim asylum its asylum in Greece. no allocation of money to Greece to spend on these asylum seekers, some money to help with sifting and sorting claims. How is that going to work? Greece is skint

Are they trying to get Golden Dawn in power or something?

 

[J Ed]

Just listening to ham face in the Commons, this deal. £3bn to be spent in Turkey on refugees. If they make it to Greece, they get sent back if they don't claim asylum, if they do claim asylum its asylum in Greece. no allocation of money to Greece to spend on these asylum seekers, some money to help with sifting and sorting claims. How is that going to work? Greece is skint

The EU has decided that Greece has to do what it's told.