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Recent attacks in Iraq

could someone remind me why it was the Iraqi army dissolved in the face of ISIS? too much information to keep up with, Ive forgotten....
 
ska invita said:
could someone remind me why it was the Iraqi army dissolved in the face of ISIS? too much information to keep up with, Ive forgotten....
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The Army is as corrupt as the rest of Iraq is, many of the troops were trained by the same sort of civil contractor firms who did such a bang-up job elsewhere in the country, and Maliki seems to have fallen out with any of the senior officers who were actually any good.
 
agricola said:
The Army is as corrupt as the rest of Iraq is, many of the troops were trained by the same sort of civil contractor firms who did such a bang-up job elsewhere in the country, and Maliki seems to have fallen out with any of the senior officers who were actually any good.
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thanks

this is a summary of some reasons why

Why has Iraq’s military failed?
A new Iraqi army was re-established from militia members and low-ranking members of the Ba’th army when it was dissolved in 2003. Senior officers in Saddam Hussein’s forces were dismissed, which gave rise to at least two security issues. Firstly, military officers of the previous army were steered towards terrorist groups. Secondly, Iraq’s new military suffered from the loss of expertise and military discipline instilled by their former officers.

As a result, Iraq’s army lacks the essential expertise and discipline to fight a terrorist group. ISIL fighters in most situations have superior combat experience to the government’s better-equipped forces.
The lack of an effective intelligence agency in Iraq has also enabled ISIL to infiltrate the army. Additionally, political leaders who make the final decisions on military operations are typically inefficient, as the government does not have a clear vision, strategy and effective tactics to overcome national problems.

Poor governance has led to widespread corruption in both political and military spheres. Military personnel are routinely reported to be soliciting bribes, especially in Sunni areas of Iraq.
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i bring it up because I wonder what it would take for Iraq to have a functioning military again...
 
ska invita said:
could someone remind me why it was the Iraqi army dissolved in the face of ISIS? too much information to keep up with, Ive forgotten....
Click to expand...

too great a percentage of the Army was employed in the Army as a reward for political loyalty to Maliki - effectively an army salary, and opportunities for corruption, banditry, extortion and swanning about in a fancy uniform in return for tribal loyalty.

this had a catastrophic effect on its training regime, confidence in its leadership, the amount effort it put into maintaining its equipment, and the confidence of the civilian population in both its willingness to fight, and its ability to win any fight.

in effect, it was a sham and it knew it was a sham - it legged it before it got the shoeing it knew it was going to get.
 
kebabking said:
too great a percentage of the Army was employed in the Army as a reward for political loyalty to Maliki - effectively an army salary, and opportunities for corruption, banditry, extortion and swanning about in a fancy uniform in return for tribal loyalty.

this had a catastrophic effect on its training regime, confidence in its leadership, the amount effort it put into maintaining its equipment, and the confidence of the civilian population in both its willingness to fight, and its ability to win any fight.

in effect, it was a sham and it knew it was a sham - it legged it before it got the shoeing it knew it was going to get.
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All true, but even if they manage to cobble together a post Maliki govt how will they manage to fight off the IS without a functioning army?
 
coley said:
All true, but even if they manage to cobble together a post Maliki govt how will they manage to fight off the IS without a functioning army?
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The Yanks could well do that for them - indeed as the IS seems to have transformed itself into an army and has much of its combat strength out in the open, there is probably no better time for the Yanks to do so. One would imagine much of the Pentagon would much rather do that (which is after all what the US Army is still best at) than faff about with airstrikes and repeating the oft-failed policy of arming other groups.
 
DotCommunist said:
you've got to consider ideological motivation too. An army that doesn't trust itself vs people who do, well numbers aren't all.
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That and the individual concern that even if you are prepared to fight you might well be left behind by your comrades to be butchered by the IS
 
agricola said:
The Yanks could well do that for them - indeed as the IS seems to have transformed itself into an army and has much of its combat strength out in the open, there is probably no better time for the Yanks to do so. One would imagine much of the Pentagon would much rather do that (which is after all what the US Army is still best at) than faff about with airstrikes and repeating the oft-failed policy of arming other groups.
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American boots on the ground would be the final straw to many in the region,whereas air strikes can be explained as outside support, though they should be massively increased while the IS is in the open
 
agricola said:
The Yanks could well do that for them - indeed as the IS seems to have transformed itself into an army and has much of its combat strength out in the open, there is probably no better time for the Yanks to do so. One would imagine much of the Pentagon would much rather do that (which is after all what the US Army is still best at) than faff about with airstrikes and repeating the oft-failed policy of arming other groups.
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All the info from Obama seems to be that he does not want boots on the ground.
He is prepared to arm IS enemies .. perhaps advise them but more than that he does not seem to want.
 
coley said:
All true, but even if they manage to cobble together a post Maliki govt how will they manage to fight off the IS without a functioning army?
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US and Iraqi airpower, Shia Militias, the Kurds, and CIA bought-off Sunni Militias.

they can probably put something together - the rout was a month ago - but it will be a fraction of the on-paper combat power of the Iraqi Army. some Artillery, some air-mobility, some infantry, but they'll be just one of the many players, rather than the big stick they should be.
 
kebabking said:
US and Iraqi airpower, Shia Militias, the Kurds, and CIA bought-off Sunni Militias.

they can probably put something together - the rout was a month ago - but it will be a fraction of the on-paper combat power of the Iraqi Army. some Artillery, some air-mobility, some infantry, but they'll be just one of the many players, rather than the big stick they should be.
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Facing how many IS forces? Though there are reports of People deserting other AQ groups to join The IS, let them all group together, one small nuclear bomb, problem sorted:D
 
coley said:
American boots on the ground would be the final straw to many in the region,whereas air strikes can be explained as outside support...
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oh i don't know, what might have been unnacceptable 6 months ago might look otherwise with ISIS beheading all and sundry an hour up the road from Baghdad..

having the Army of Satan himself turn up on your doorstep tends to broaden the mind as to acceptable allies.
 
DotCommunist said:
you've got to consider ideological motivation too. An army that doesn't trust itself vs people who do, well numbers aren't all.
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agreed - it has to be that as id imagine on numbers and force the Iraqi army had a significant advantage, even if not trained that well. im trying to understand the ideological aspect and what went down at the time...
 
kebabking said:
oh i don't know, what might have been unnacceptable 6 months ago might look otherwise with ISIS beheading all and sundry an hour up the road from Baghdad..

having the Army of Satan himself turn up on your doorstep tends to broaden the mind as to acceptable allies.
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Then they need to get a move on,the way things are going in Bagdad they will be fighting each other shortly, talk about fiddling while Rome burns!
 
coley said:
Then they need to get a move on,the way things are going in Bagdad they will be fighting each other shortly, talk about fiddling while Rome burns!
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agreed - it looks like a complete gangfuck with the Iraqi state dissolving before our eyes. however, given that for the other Sunni players its the Iraqi state thats the problem, that might not be a catastrophe - with Maliki too busy saving his own miserable skin to get on their tits, they might decide (in a re-run of the 'Sunni awakening of 2007..) that ISIS's usefullness has come to an end.

the question of course will be whether ISIS has got tpo big, too powerful, too scary to be lopped off...
 
weltweit said:
All the info from Obama seems to be that he does not want boots on the ground.
He is prepared to arm IS enemies .. perhaps advise them but more than that he does not seem to want.
Click to expand...

coley said:
American boots on the ground would be the final straw to many in the region,whereas air strikes can be explained as outside support, though they should be massively increased while the IS is in the open
Click to expand...

I agree thats what Obama wants, but from a military standpoint the US Armed Forces would probably relish a quick war where they get to blow tanks, guns and whatnot up and then leave. I am not sure that it would be the "final straw to many in the region" either - noone has a reason to stand up for (or even shed a tear for) IS, and it could always be painted as the Yanks fixing a mess created by themselves.
 
The US armed forces ( and no doubt the British) would probably love to get into a battle with the IS but public opinion will not allow it and politicians haven't got the balls to do what is needed, so I think air strikes are as far as we will go.
 
Mr.Bishie said:
I very much doubt that. Since 1991 it's been a cluster fuck.

Just watching Chan4 news. Fucking depressing all the same.
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But a political cluster fuck, give the army a straight fight and the IS would be wiped out, but fighting while worrying about civilian casualties, about how your actions will be scrutinised etc etc,
 
coley said:
But a political cluster fuck, give the army a straight fight and the IS would be wiped out, but fighting while worrying about civilian casualties, about how your actions will be scrutinised etc etc,
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Does Western int actually know how many IS fighters are even on the ground? And there's no such thing as a "straight fight" in the desert mountains.
 
a quick, clean win against the devil himself would be very welcome in the british armed forces - not only would it put the brakes on continuing defence cuts to the army (particularly the heavy, expensive, tracked army..) but it would draw a much-needed curtain over the messy, somewhat equivical, drawn out experiences of Iraq2.0 and Afghanistan...

won't happen though, anyone who thinks - regardless of the wisdom or not of it - that Cameron has the bollocks for such a conflict 8 months before an election is smoking crack.
 
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