Prevent: How far has surveillance of muslim communities gone?

[Brainaddict]

Pretty far according to some people. If the reporting is accurate then a lot of the measures seem to assume that merely being muslim is suspicious.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/16/anti-terrorism-strategy-spies-innocents

I think they're taking their lead from this report:
http://www.irr.org.uk/2009/october/ak000036.html

The story has also gone international, which should do no end of good to Britain's already fantastic reputation abroad:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2009/10/2009101710273632839.html

The Channel Project is particularly disturbing, since it involves reporting on suspicious ideologies among kids and then reporting them for reeducation. I see the logic from their point of view but think it is likely to be massively counterproductive, quite besides putting in place the apparatus for monitoring people's opinions.

 

[Fullyplumped]

The story has also gone international, which should do no end of good to Britain's already fantastic reputation abroad

Perhaps we should adopt the approaches to tackling extremism adopted by countries in which Al Jazeera is popular!

 

[Brainaddict]

Perhaps we should adopt the approaches to tackling extremism adopted by countries in which Al Jazeera is popular!

You mean the authoritarian friends of the UK and US who have been encouraged by the UK and US to turn their repressive state machinery on extremists?

No, I don't think we should behave like that. I think the government would love to though, and so would you I suspect.

 

[Fullyplumped]

Well you've certainly got me there.

There was plainly no risk of you seeing the irony of quoting Al Jazeera when complaining how viciously repressive this country is in trying to tackle Islamist subversion. Bush+Blair=Hitler!!!1!!

 

[Brainaddict]

Well you've certainly got me there.

There was plainly no risk of you seeing the irony of quoting Al Jazeera when complaining how viciously repressive this country is in trying to tackle Islamist subversion. Bush+Blair=Hitler!!!1!!

Try not to sound as ignorant and bigotted as you actually are. Al Jazeera is run by journalists, not governments. Your comments are like some idiot seeing something on the BBC that disagrees with the government line and going "See! The government don't even know their own minds."

Why am I even talking to you? Just fuck off.

 

[Fullyplumped]

Well you're the one dragging your coat on the ground and looking for someone to step on it. I was just glad to oblige!

 

[derf]

A note.
I watch Al Jazeera a lot. It reports terrorism but never supports it.
It's quite balanced on most issues but is biased towards Palestine.
I happen to agree with that so I won't be complaining.

 

[Fullyplumped]

A note.
I watch Al Jazeera a lot. It reports terrorism but never supports it.
It's quite balanced on most issues but is biased towards Palestine.
I happen to agree with that so I won't be complaining.

I'm not criticising Al-J. Just saying that the countries it's popular in are much more repressive than this one. Why do people put this country down? It's one of the most free in the world, which is probably why so many Muslims want to come and live here!

 

[derf]

I'm not criticising Al-J. Just saying that the countries it's popular in are much more repressive than this one. Why do people put this country down? It's one of the most free in the world, which is probably why so many Muslims want to come and live here!

Are you sure about the freedom bit?

I've been reading threads on urban about use of cameras in public and being threatened with arrest, Government using masses of cctv to monitor the population and various other threads about how liberty is being removed by government including trying to suppress the reporting of parliament.
Not happening here. I use my camera where ever I like, never seen a government CCTV cam and no way could the press be gagged as it was in the UK.
Corruption is a problem but Blair and Brown seem to be doing their fair share of that as well.
Last I looked, Indonesia was about 85% Muslim.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

We have the biggest police-state in the world.

 

[editor]

We have the biggest police-state in the world.

I don't think we do, you know. Really.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

We certainly have the biggest apparatus for one.

 

[Ralph Masters]

Britain certainly has good intelligence and secrecy policies

 

[DeepStoat]

Britain certainly has good intelligence and secrecy policies

Define 'good'.

 

[Ralph Masters]

Define 'good'.

Intelligence gathering is efficient and widespread, this has been achieved by a building up a multitude of connections worldwide, British business interests have traditionally relied on it

 

[Fullyplumped]

Are you sure about the freedom bit?

I've been reading threads on urban about use of cameras in public and being threatened with arrest, Government using masses of cctv to monitor the population and various other threads about how liberty is being removed by government including trying to suppress the reporting of parliament.
Not happening here. I use my camera where ever I like, never seen a government CCTV cam and no way could the press be gagged as it was in the UK.
Corruption is a problem but Blair and Brown seem to be doing their fair share of that as well.
Last I looked, Indonesia was about 85% Muslim.

Stuff you read on Urban can be interesting - that's why I like it - but you shouldn't treat it as entirely reliable reportage. Most CCTV in communities where people live is there not only within the consent of but at the insistence of local people. The cops have been firmly told to behave themselves about photographers- though I'm not a photographer and those who are can speak for themselves. I'm not sure how you can portray the recent Trafigura debacle as being at the instance of government but if you get all your news from here maybe that's why.

I haven't met many Indonesians here, but many of those I have met have been refugees with what I would call a well founded fear of persecution from the authorities!

Plenty of biased information about Indonesia's special approach to human rights here. And, for contrast, this is what's worrying the bien pensants about the hell that is living in the prison camp we call home. At least you escaped!

 

[durruti02]

I don't think we do, you know. Really.

i heard that in the UK if you set up an website that had anti-govt debate on it you were locked up!!! thats what i heard!!

 

[durruti02]

Pretty far according to some people. If the reporting is accurate then a lot of the measures seem to assume that merely being muslim is suspicious.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/16/anti-terrorism-strategy-spies-innocents

I think they're taking their lead from this report:
http://www.irr.org.uk/2009/october/ak000036.html

The story has also gone international, which should do no end of good to Britain's already fantastic reputation abroad:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2009/10/2009101710273632839.html

The Channel Project is particularly disturbing, since it involves reporting on suspicious ideologies among kids and then reporting them for reeducation. I see the logic from their point of view but think it is likely to be massively counterproductive, quite besides putting in place the apparatus for monitoring people's opinions.

the 9/11 and 7/7 bombings were the two biggest terrorist attacks against uk citizens .. they both came out of the muslim extremist community .. and 7/7 and the other failed attacks from Uk based muslims .. what would you expect the govt to do?

and yes we all agree they should get out of iraq/afghan etc

 

[The39thStep]

There is an interesting question as to what an alternative counter terrorism strategy would look like.

 

[audiotech]

Intelligence gathering is efficient and widespread, this has been achieved by a building up a multitude of connections worldwide, British business interests have traditionally relied on it

Some intelligence gatherers, as Peter Wright noted in his book Spycatcher, 'bungled and burgled their way across London' which at the time he refers to suggests inefficiency.

Coming more up to date, David Shaylor makes similar claims

 

[Brainaddict]

There is an interesting question as to what an alternative counter terrorism strategy would look like.

It is an interesting question, but of interest to few people here it would seem.

 

[Brainaddict]

Actually, fucking hell, I think I finally give up on the politics forum. People here are obssessed with the doings of tiny groups of people to the far left and far right of the political spectrum but the routine surveillance of 2 million largely innocent citizens by the state is barely worth discussing it seems.

As my parting comment*: I've noticed that many anarchists have their little inner authoritarians, usually emerging from the conviction that any reasonable person should think just like them. It's been interesting to see the convergence of anarchist hatred of religion and popular islamophobia bring all that authoritarianism to the surface. Interesting, but I'm not sure I can be fucked to engage with it any more, or with the various other types of bigot on here.


*PS I'm sure I'll be back in here really, but for a few weeks at least I shall dream of a world free of politicians, trots and anarchists and ignore the whole steenking lot of you

 

[FridgeMagnet]

the 9/11 and 7/7 bombings were the two biggest terrorist attacks against uk citizens .. they both came out of the muslim extremist community .. and 7/7 and the other failed attacks from Uk based muslims .. what would you expect the govt to do?

perhaps "something useful" rather than "use it as an excuse to widen surveillance"

Of course, that is "expect" meaning "think *should* do" rather than "think *will* do".

 

[Pickman's model]

Intelligence gathering is efficient and widespread

a forward intelligence team photo card from a few months ago contained a good picture of a dead anarchist, who passed away last year.

fucking efficient, i must say

 

[Pickman's model]

the 9/11 and 7/7 bombings were the two biggest terrorist attacks against uk citizens

i think we can safely say that any deaths of uk nationals in new york were incidental to the aim of the attacks.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

i heard that in the UK if you set up an website that had anti-govt debate on it you were locked up!!! thats what i heard!!

Note there's not much to stop that from happening.

We may not have the most repressive state, but we have the most surveillance, spying, data-mining, monitoring etc. which is why it is accurate to say we have the biggest police state - because, in terms of the apparatus that is there, we do. Not only that, but the powers that exist now in the hands of the state are ominous.

 

[Pickman's model]

Note there's not much to stop that from happening.

We may not have the most repressive state, but we have the most surveillance, spying, data-mining, monitoring etc. which is why it is accurate to say we have the biggest police state - because, in terms of the apparatus that is there, we do. Not only that, but the powers that exist now in the hands of the state are ominous.

have you ever heard of the special powers act of the old northern ireland parliament?

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

yeah, and it's something that's been extended to the rest of the uk

 

[Pickman's model]

yeah, and it's something that's been extended to the rest of the uk

link?

 

[belboid]

the 9/11 and 7/7 bombings were the two biggest terrorist attacks against uk citizens .. they both came out of the muslim extremist community .. and 7/7 and the other failed attacks from Uk based muslims .. what would you expect the govt to do?

I would expect our government to do something mmoronic and couonter-productive, like spying on muslims who have absolutely no connection to terrorism or extremism, thereby making them even more fucked off with the government, and tending more towards 'extremism'.

And I'd expect anyone concerned with defending working-class people to point out the governments stupidity.