Pingety Pong
Well-Known Member
But it was published in the Handelsblatt (a bit like the Financial Times) and I don't think they would just publish any old crap without any substance to it, so this is worrying.
Possible vaccines/treatment(s) for Coronavirus
- Thread starter cupid_stunt
- Start date
But it was published in the Handelsblatt (a bit like the Financial Times) and I don't think they would just publish any old crap without any substance to it, so this is worrying.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Pingety Pong
Well-Known Member
Other German papers though (ok, the Bild 
) are reporting as well that the AZ won't be approved for the over 65s by the EMA. I suppose we will know more by Friday.
) are reporting as well that the AZ won't be approved for the over 65s by the EMA. I suppose we will know more by Friday.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Vaccines working less well in older people is a sort of default assumption that people might expect to see in general with vaccines (nothing specific to this pandemic). But such assumptions should always be placeholders that real data will replace eventually. And its too easy for me to leap to conclusions when I see a news item that seems to align with these broad assumptions. So I will keep an open mind.
The broader topic can be annoying. For example the routine yearly influenza vaccines became extremely rubbish at preventing some strains of influenza in older people, and data suggesting that was available for years. But the authorities etc never really drew any attention to it at all, and the issue was obfuscated, until they were ready to offer a different influenza vaccine for older people that in theory should offer more protection.
This stuff is one of the reasons I fret about people treating vaccination as a silver bullet. But its not the only one, and its not a prediction.
The broader topic can be annoying. For example the routine yearly influenza vaccines became extremely rubbish at preventing some strains of influenza in older people, and data suggesting that was available for years. But the authorities etc never really drew any attention to it at all, and the issue was obfuscated, until they were ready to offer a different influenza vaccine for older people that in theory should offer more protection.
This stuff is one of the reasons I fret about people treating vaccination as a silver bullet. But its not the only one, and its not a prediction.
Boris Sprinkler
Dont be scared
Indeliblelink
\......👁&👁......./
No data suggesting lower efficacy of AstraZeneca vaccine: German health ministry
There is no data that would suggest efficacy of only 8% among older people for AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine, the German health ministry said on Tuesday in response to corresponding media reports.
www.reuters.com
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
May be bullshit, but a story about Olympic athletes getting the vaccine to allow the games to go ahead in the Summer:
Mo Farah claims Olympic athletes have been told they will get Covid vaccines | Tokyo Olympic Games 2020 | The Guardian
My first reaction was if this was true, they wouldn't extend it to cleaners, catering staff and others who keep the games going. Then, on reflection, they'd probably have to vaccinate all those people to avoid an outbreak across the Olympics venues. Anyway, it's the first story I've seen of what will no doubt be a trend: 'oh, we've got to vaccinate those people out of turn'.
Mo Farah claims Olympic athletes have been told they will get Covid vaccines | Tokyo Olympic Games 2020 | The Guardian
My first reaction was if this was true, they wouldn't extend it to cleaners, catering staff and others who keep the games going. Then, on reflection, they'd probably have to vaccinate all those people to avoid an outbreak across the Olympics venues. Anyway, it's the first story I've seen of what will no doubt be a trend: 'oh, we've got to vaccinate those people out of turn'.
Just had a voicemail from St Thomas' hospital about the Janssen Ensemble 2 study that people here have mentioned.
I am very much having second and third thoughts now...
First, I hate medical procedures - it always takes three different nurses/doctors and three laborious attemps to have any blood taken; might have to ask iona to be my personal phlebotomist!
Second, I am quite happy avoiding the outside world, so throwing myself into high-risk covid environments like a hospital without medical necessity...I am not sure...
Third, is there any point if I might have to unblind myself in a few months time anyway when I will hopefully be offered one of the current vaccines? (Actually, I think that got answered upthread, that even doing it for a few months might still provide useful data).
Forth, but actually possibly first, something I don't want to discuss here.
Fifth, what Poot mentioned about future vaccinations. Just read an article by a man in his 70s today who was on a trial, got unblinded after being offered the vaccine, turns out he had the trial vaccince (I think Janssen as for this study) for which efficacy isn't yet known, but there is uncertainty about how good it would be to have another different vaccine on top of it immediately.
So the only thing in the "pro" column is feeling useful. All I have been able to contribute to the pandemic fighting efforts so far is to isolate the hell out of myself to try and not catch and spread the virus...
Oh, and the 50/50 chance of getting a (hopefully efficacious) vaccine several months before I otherwise might.
Do you know, Poot and iona how many appointments you are expected to attend?
Hmmm, I think I am leaning quite strongly towards no atm, especially as this study seems mainly to research a different dosage regime, if I understand correctly, and the "main" study for the single dose vaccine is all but completed.
^^^Composed this post earlier this afternoon and am now wobbling a bit more again, maybe wanting to do it. So right now my uppermost concern would be the risk of catching covid in a healthcare setting.
They did ask in their voicemail for me to call back, or to text if I am no longer interested, so I feel I should make a decision and let them know in the morning.
I am very much having second and third thoughts now...
First, I hate medical procedures - it always takes three different nurses/doctors and three laborious attemps to have any blood taken; might have to ask iona to be my personal phlebotomist!
Second, I am quite happy avoiding the outside world, so throwing myself into high-risk covid environments like a hospital without medical necessity...I am not sure...
Third, is there any point if I might have to unblind myself in a few months time anyway when I will hopefully be offered one of the current vaccines? (Actually, I think that got answered upthread, that even doing it for a few months might still provide useful data).
Forth, but actually possibly first, something I don't want to discuss here.
Fifth, what Poot mentioned about future vaccinations. Just read an article by a man in his 70s today who was on a trial, got unblinded after being offered the vaccine, turns out he had the trial vaccince (I think Janssen as for this study) for which efficacy isn't yet known, but there is uncertainty about how good it would be to have another different vaccine on top of it immediately.
So the only thing in the "pro" column is feeling useful. All I have been able to contribute to the pandemic fighting efforts so far is to isolate the hell out of myself to try and not catch and spread the virus...
Oh, and the 50/50 chance of getting a (hopefully efficacious) vaccine several months before I otherwise might.
Do you know, Poot and iona how many appointments you are expected to attend?
Hmmm, I think I am leaning quite strongly towards no atm, especially as this study seems mainly to research a different dosage regime, if I understand correctly, and the "main" study for the single dose vaccine is all but completed.
^^^Composed this post earlier this afternoon and am now wobbling a bit more again, maybe wanting to do it. So right now my uppermost concern would be the risk of catching covid in a healthcare setting.
They did ask in their voicemail for me to call back, or to text if I am no longer interested, so I feel I should make a decision and let them know in the morning.
Poot
My wife thinks I work too hard
Your concerns should be taken seriously.
I went yesterday and am now on the vaccine trial. My biggest problem was the technology because I am old and stupid. Other than that it was a piece of cake and everyone was lovely but it was quite time consuming (2.5 hours). I answered a million personal questions, they took blood, gave me a covid test and a pregnancy test (used the words 'miracles do happen then giggled copiously when telling me it was negative
) then injected me with what I am 80% sure was a placebo.I am fine and have a bag of oximeter, thermometer etc and an app that I am crap at using but that's my fault. You get prompted about what you have to do. But it does go on for months, I won't lie. My next appt is in March (I have a phone appt in Feb).
Give it some thought. I am lucky because my family will be vaccinated eventually and I think herd immunity will mostly be in place by then but I will probably get unblinded if I am offered the vaccine. It won't matter by then because my vaccine is probably ages away!
Your concerns should be taken seriously.
I went yesterday and am now on the vaccine trial. My biggest problem was the technology because I am old and stupid. Other than that it was a piece of cake and everyone was lovely but it was quite time consuming (2.5 hours). I answered a million personal questions, they took blood, gave me a covid test and a pregnancy test (used the words 'miracles do happen then giggled copiously when telling me it was negative
I am fine and have a bag of oximeter, thermometer etc and an app that I am crap at using but that's my fault. You get prompted about what you have to do. But it does go on for months, I won't lie. My next appt is in March (I have a phone appt in Feb).
Give it some thought. I am lucky because my family will be vaccinated eventually and I think herd immunity will mostly be in place by then but I will probably get unblinded if I am offered the vaccine. It won't matter by then because my vaccine is probably ages away!
Ah that's super helpful, thank you! On reading that my first thoughts are that I do like the idea of the gift of an oximeter, but very much dislike the thought of sitting in an appointment for 2.5 hrs
. Probably wouldn't do my current anxiety levels any favours. Will do some more mulling over!
Supine
Newt Member
Sanofi faced some delays in their vaccine development work some time ago. They have just agreed to produce 100 million doses of the BioNTech vaccine at their German plant. Basically using their manufacturing capability for another companies product while they continue with dev work.
Its great to see rivals working together to get product to market
Its great to see rivals working together to get product to market
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
It's a bit time comsuming and there's some risk and effort involved, but that's not new. Maybe don't do it if you're already stressing about it.
I don't know if your post is meant to read as abrasively as it reads to me, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have conflicting thoughts and feelings about a decision like this.
Indeed I am coming down on the side of "it's probably not right for me at this time", given the worry it might cause me (and for another personal reason).
But I was also excited about the potential opportunity (on a personal level and to contribute something).
And the risk-cost-benefit analysis seems to me to be very much a changing field - in terms of the risk of picking up covid in a healthcare setting while cases are this rife, how many vaccines are already available, and how much this particular trial seems to add in terms of usefulness among other things.
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cupid_stunt
Merry fecking Christmas.
With the doubts you have, it does seem reasonable not to go ahead, TBH.
cupid_stunt
Merry fecking Christmas.
Another possible treatment drug is going to trial.
New antibody drug joins Oxford University trial of Coronavirus treatments
Regeneron’s experimental drug REGN-COV2 to be added to UK’s Recovery trialwww.theguardian.com
The REGEN-COV trials continue, and are looking positive, and it could be approved in the next few months.
COVID-19: Breakthrough treatment claims to stop 100% of symptomatic infections
Makers say early tests of the experimental drug indicate it may "break the chain" of rising coronavirus infections.
2hats
Dust.
The Imperial saRNA vaccine team has switched focus from phase III trials (phase II results due soon) to working on a single dose 'booster' vaccine that can rapidly target new variants and supplement previous vaccinations.
www.imperial.ac.uk
They are removing the cold chain that other RNA based vaccines require, storing at standard fridge temperatures, and looking to make a solid thermostable version that can be kept up to 40C. They are also investigating delivering it via a needle free method which would require minimal training. All developments to widen deployment, particularly in regions lacking the medical infrastructure/organisation (cold chains, highly trained staff, tracking and recall of patients).
www.imperial.ac.uk
FT article:
Interesting to note the relative development/funding costs thus far; Imperial's saRNA having received £18 million.
Source: BBC.
Imperial vaccine tech to target COVID mutations and booster doses | Imperial News | Imperial College London
Imperial is focusing its RNA vaccine technology to target SARS-CoV-2 mutations, boosters and thermostability rather than an immediate efficacy trial.
www.imperial.ac.uk
Vaccine collaboration could overcome cold chain issues for RNA-based vaccines | Imperial News | Imperial College London
Imperial vaccine researchers are collaborating with industry partners to develop RNA vaccines stable at temperatures up to 40C.
www.imperial.ac.uk
Imperial College to target coronavirus mutations
London university ditches plans for efficacy trial to focus on developing next-generation jabs
Clive Cookson yesterday, FT
Imperial College London, once a leading UK contender in the Covid-19 vaccine race, has dropped plans for a large-scale efficacy trial this year.
Instead the university’s team will focus its RNA technology on developing next-generation jabs that would target coronavirus mutations and provide boosters for existing vaccines.
Professor Robin Shattock, the project leader, said the change of direction did not reflect disappointing results from phase 1 and 2 clinical trials, which have involved more than 400 volunteers.
“Although our first generation Covid-19 vaccine candidate is showing promise in early clinical development, the broader situation has changed with the rapid roll out of approved vaccines,” he said.
“It is not the right time to start a new efficacy trial for a further vaccine in the UK, with the emphasis rightly placed on mass vaccination in response to the rapid spread of the new variant.”
The Imperial technology is based on “self-amplifying RNA” or saRNA. This is similar to the mRNA vaccines from Moderna and BioNTech/Pfizer — injecting genetic instructions to make viral proteins, which prime the immune system to fight future infection.
But, unlike the others, the Imperial vaccine makes multiple copies of its RNA inside human cells, which means that much smaller doses are needed. Another difference is that it is stable at ordinary fridge temperatures and does not require storage in a deep freeze like other mRNA vaccines.
“We want to develop Imperial’s technology as a safety net to catch escape mutations, reach variants that other vaccines may not and meet potential needs for annual booster vaccinations,” Prof Shattock said. “We are also providing the UK with long-term capability in RNA vaccines for Covid-19 and other potential infectious threats.”
The Imperial scientists are already developing saRNA vaccines to target other lethal viruses that could pose pandemic risks to the world, including Ebola, Marburg and Lassa fever.
Last spring people were talking about the Imperial project alongside Oxford’s vaccine as the two great UK candidates to inoculate the world against Covid-19.
The Oxford vaccine proceeded faster, Prof Shattock said, both because its adenovirus-based technology was more advanced than Imperial’s saRNA and because it was much more generously funded by the government and its pharmaceutical industry partner AstraZeneca.
The same applied to the research and development investment by the US and German governments in the Moderna and BioNTech vaccines. “We received £18m last year from philanthropists and the UK government, which pales into insignificance compared to the billions paid to the others,” he said.
With RNA inoculation now certain to be a key strand in the future of the global vaccines industry, Prof Shattock said it was essential for the UK to build up development and production capacity in the area.
“We are already seeing that it is problematic to rely on vaccine manufacturing in Europe and elsewhere in the world,” he said. “The export restrictions being discussed this week should be a wake-up call.”
Doug Brown, chief executive of the British Society for Immunology, welcomed Imperial’s change of strategy. “The team there has clearly thought long and hard about this,” he said, “and it will be great to see their technology continue to develop”.
London university ditches plans for efficacy trial to focus on developing next-generation jabs
Clive Cookson yesterday, FT
Imperial College London, once a leading UK contender in the Covid-19 vaccine race, has dropped plans for a large-scale efficacy trial this year.
Instead the university’s team will focus its RNA technology on developing next-generation jabs that would target coronavirus mutations and provide boosters for existing vaccines.
Professor Robin Shattock, the project leader, said the change of direction did not reflect disappointing results from phase 1 and 2 clinical trials, which have involved more than 400 volunteers.
“Although our first generation Covid-19 vaccine candidate is showing promise in early clinical development, the broader situation has changed with the rapid roll out of approved vaccines,” he said.
“It is not the right time to start a new efficacy trial for a further vaccine in the UK, with the emphasis rightly placed on mass vaccination in response to the rapid spread of the new variant.”
The Imperial technology is based on “self-amplifying RNA” or saRNA. This is similar to the mRNA vaccines from Moderna and BioNTech/Pfizer — injecting genetic instructions to make viral proteins, which prime the immune system to fight future infection.
But, unlike the others, the Imperial vaccine makes multiple copies of its RNA inside human cells, which means that much smaller doses are needed. Another difference is that it is stable at ordinary fridge temperatures and does not require storage in a deep freeze like other mRNA vaccines.
“We want to develop Imperial’s technology as a safety net to catch escape mutations, reach variants that other vaccines may not and meet potential needs for annual booster vaccinations,” Prof Shattock said. “We are also providing the UK with long-term capability in RNA vaccines for Covid-19 and other potential infectious threats.”
The Imperial scientists are already developing saRNA vaccines to target other lethal viruses that could pose pandemic risks to the world, including Ebola, Marburg and Lassa fever.
Last spring people were talking about the Imperial project alongside Oxford’s vaccine as the two great UK candidates to inoculate the world against Covid-19.
The Oxford vaccine proceeded faster, Prof Shattock said, both because its adenovirus-based technology was more advanced than Imperial’s saRNA and because it was much more generously funded by the government and its pharmaceutical industry partner AstraZeneca.
The same applied to the research and development investment by the US and German governments in the Moderna and BioNTech vaccines. “We received £18m last year from philanthropists and the UK government, which pales into insignificance compared to the billions paid to the others,” he said.
With RNA inoculation now certain to be a key strand in the future of the global vaccines industry, Prof Shattock said it was essential for the UK to build up development and production capacity in the area.
“We are already seeing that it is problematic to rely on vaccine manufacturing in Europe and elsewhere in the world,” he said. “The export restrictions being discussed this week should be a wake-up call.”
Doug Brown, chief executive of the British Society for Immunology, welcomed Imperial’s change of strategy. “The team there has clearly thought long and hard about this,” he said, “and it will be great to see their technology continue to develop”.
Source: BBC.
cupid_stunt
Merry fecking Christmas.
The AZ one is being provided at cost, so around £3 a dose, Pfizer around £15 & Moderna £28.
COVID-19 vaccines: How do the Moderna, Pfizer and Oxford coronavirus jab candidates compare?
Three vaccines set for use in the UK have all reported they are around 90% effective in late stage trials.
ETA - oh, sorry, you are talking about the investment rather the cost of doses, that's probably has a lot to do with how many doses have been pre-ordered, and investment in the manufacturing & supply chains.
Indeliblelink
\......👁&👁......./
Oxford vaccine factory evacuated after 'suspicious package' was sent to site
A bomb disposal team has been called to the factory in which the Oxford vaccine is made after a suspicious package was reported.
www.telegraph.co.uk
elbows
Well-Known Member
Cross convalescent plasma off the list.
Covid: 'Convalescent plasma no benefit to hospital patients'
Donations of plasma from people who have recovered from the virus have been suspended.www.bbc.co.uk
Followup to this story.
I'd heard nothing about it since, but just saw a NHS England advert on telly appealing for people to donate plasma. And then I searched online news for 'donate plasma' and got loads of local newspaper stories from a few days ago with the same appeal for donors. It seems they have a different sort of trial in mind this time.
Here is just one example of the sort of local news story I found:
Liverpool people who have had Covid urged to come forward
A donation could be life-saving, experts say - as they encourage people to come forward
2hats
Dust.
Can't find any published detailed budgetary breakdowns. To some degree development funding (AZ1222 > BNT162b2 > mRNA-1273) might perhaps influence final cost per dose (AZ1222 < BNT162b2 < mRNA-1273).
Supine
Newt Member
Lots of factors are involved in unit cost.
Capital investment required, company overheads, materials, equipment utilisation, r&d debts owed before covid hit, access to manufacturing equipment, etc etc.
Oxford originally wanted to open source their vaccine but decided to get into bed with a big pharma company. That offered advantages in letting existing professionals setup the supply chain and worry about things like pharmacovigilance quickly i'd imagine.
Moderna is almost certainly more expensive because they're a relatively new company without an existing product base, so setting up a lot of stuff from scratch rather than utilising existing capacity.
Capital investment required, company overheads, materials, equipment utilisation, r&d debts owed before covid hit, access to manufacturing equipment, etc etc.
Oxford originally wanted to open source their vaccine but decided to get into bed with a big pharma company. That offered advantages in letting existing professionals setup the supply chain and worry about things like pharmacovigilance quickly i'd imagine.
Moderna is almost certainly more expensive because they're a relatively new company without an existing product base, so setting up a lot of stuff from scratch rather than utilising existing capacity.
Indeliblelink
\......👁&👁......./
Preprint up with some more lab assay results from Pfizer on the BNT162b2 vaccine's effect on UK & SA variants. Limited study, only 20 people given doses three weeks apart in the initial trials and testing against bio-engineered versions of the virus that didn't have all the variants spike mutations. Sounds like a small drop in effectiveness against the UK and SA variants but by small enough margins it's not of too much concern. As usual "Clinical data are needed for firm conclusions about vaccine effectiveness against variant viruses."
www.biorxiv.org
Neutralization of SARS-CoV-2 spike 69/70 deletion, E484K, and N501Y variants by BNT162b2 vaccine-elicited sera
We engineered three SARS-CoV-2 viruses containing key spike mutations from the newly emerged United Kingdom (UK) and South African (SA) variants: N501Y from UK and SA; 69/70-deletion+N501Y+D614G from UK; and E484K+N501Y+D614G from SA. Neutralization geometric mean titers (GMTs) of twenty...
2hats
Dust.
A virologist writes: The case against delaying SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccine boosting doses (DOI: 10.1093/cid/ciab070).
In summary:
In summary:
- lack of evidence for prime only vaccination, in particular for timescale for decay to sub-protective levels
- potential for prime only acceleration of the erosion of vaccine potency
- potential failure of prime only to address antigenic drift via somatic mutation
- prime only partial immunity driving antigenic drift
- reduction in transmission suppression in prime only regimens
2hats
Dust.
ROK also feel there is insufficient data from AZD1222 trials on over 65s for it to be used in those cohorts.
www.reuters.com
South Korea reviews AstraZeneca vaccine for elderly under rollout plan
South Korea will review the use of AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine for the elderly because of limited efficacy data, the government said on Thursday, as it unveiled a plan to inoculate 10 million high-risk people by July.
www.reuters.com
