POLL: Free movement of people - Yes or No

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Is that a city thing? Reckon it's the same everywhere tbh. Certainly is here.

I grew up in a very small village in the countryside and now live on a London council estate and I think people do know their neighbours more in the countryside, but not by as much as people think (occasionally people talk to me about moving to the country and some of them have some odd ideas about what it will be like). I think maybe you could just about define a community (as in a single delineated community, not some wider use of the word) where I grew up but you'd struggle anywhere bigger. It would be impossible where I am now I think.

 

[chilango]

From the hidden hand of the market to

And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families

in a couple of posts.

Is this where we are at?

 

[Pickman's model]

Is that a city thing? Reckon it's the same everywhere tbh. Certainly is here.

depends. i have generally known the names my neighbours, from misdelivered post if nothing else, or from newspaper reports of e.g. my former upstairs neighbour who i found one week had been sent to prison from murder.

 

[Skyfallsz]

People not having control of who lives in their communities is a massive issue and the fact that they feel that they don't seems to be one of the main factors in the rise of the far right

Of course not like you have to vote on everybody who moves into your road, but at the level where it disrupts peoples lives in a big way, of course it's going to cause trouble. Like in Calais being an extreme example, whatever you think of the people in the camps and the situation overall, nobody would like that to happen to their town, not because the people are foreign, just because there are a lot of them and they are displaced

 

[redsquirrel]

Still waiting for an answer to this redsquirrel

I didn't think something so moronic was worth replying to. For a start only the very dimwitted would make the cost of travel the only cost associated with migration. But even if we leave purely monetary concerns aside of course someones real ability to migrate is related to their class. That you and others wish to deny this shows precisely why the question in the OP isn't useful.

 

[ska invita]

People not having control of who lives in their communities is a massive issue and the fact that they feel that they don't seems to be one of the main factors in the rise of the far right

Of course not like you have to vote on everybody who moves into your road, but at the level where it disrupts peoples lives in a big way, of course it's going to cause trouble. Like in Calais being an extreme example, whatever you think of the people in the camps and the situation overall, nobody would like that to happen to their town, not because the people are foreign, just because there are a lot of them and they are displaced

where is it a massive issue in the UK do you think? where is "it" disrupting peoples lives in a big way, and what disruption do you mean?

your post may mean something i agree with or it might not, but the way you said "People having controls on who comes in their communities" sounds ominous.

 

[bimble]

People not having control of who lives in their communities is a massive issue and the fact that they feel that they don't seems to be one of the main factors in the rise of the far right

Yeah. "take back control'.

"not because the people are foreign, just because there are a lot of them and they are displaced"
What?

 

[Treacle Toes]

I am interested in how this thread has developed. People picking who gets to live around them/ in their communities?

I am trying to imagine this... What happens to those people who are not 'desirable'?

Surely this method could only work 'fairly' if the starting point for all was one of equality?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Maybe fairness and equality has sod all to do with it? Maybe what people are advocating is 'self determinism ' above and beyond all else?

 

[Skyfallsz]

where is it a massive issue in the UK do you think? where is "it" disrupting peoples lives in a big way, and what disruption do you mean?

your post may mean something i agree with or it might not, but the way you said "People having controls on who comes in their communities" sounds ominous.

I don't know in the UK, maybe I shouldn't comment because it is something I don't know a lot about. There was that riot in Holland last year because they wanted to put 2000 people in a small town all at once and they definitely have issue in the Mediterannean countries. I think to qualify my point a bit better, whatever the facts are, this mass movement of people into Europe does scare people and I think as well as it being played up by one side, it's also harmful when it's played down

 

[Skyfallsz]

Yeah. "take back control'.

"not because the people are foreign, just because there are a lot of them and they are displaced"
What?

I mean, if something awful happened to a city in the UK and everybody had to move to a different city, that would also cause a lot of friction with the locals because there would be a huge influx of people and the refugees and locals would resent each other.

 

[bimble]

I mean, if something awful happened to a city in the UK and everybody had to move to a different city, that would also cause a lot of friction with the locals because there would be a huge influx of people and the refugees and locals would resent each other.

 

[ska invita]

I don't know in the UK, maybe I shouldn't comment because it is something I don't know a lot about. There was that riot in Holland last year because they wanted to put 2000 people in a small town all at once and they definitely have issue in the Mediterannean countries. I think to qualify my point a bit better, whatever the facts are, this mass movement of people into Europe does scare people and I think as well as it being played up by one side, it's also harmful when it's played down

Theres an enormous difference between several million discplaced refugees and what is being discussed in relation to the UK.

I mean, if something awful happened to a city in the UK and everybody had to move to a different city, that would also cause a lot of friction with the locals because there would be a huge influx of people and the refugees and locals would resent each other.

Disagree - i think when there are tragedies humans are really good at being compassionate and recognising need. One problem is European media down plays the carnage going on in the middle east and north africa, so people dont naturally feel that sense of sympathy for something that is out of sight to them, and when it comes to the UK there is an additional blindness to the UKs role in having created this situation in the first place.

 

[Skyfallsz]

View attachment 89248

 

[Skyfallsz]

Disagree - i think when there are tragedies humans are really good at being compassionate and recognising need. One problem is European media down plays the carnage going on in the middle east and north africa, so people dont naturally feel that sense of sympathy for something that is out of sight to them, and when it comes to the UK there is an additional blindness to the UKs role in having created this situation in the first place.

But I think that the problem is that it seems endless. These wars seem interminable, the refugee crisis itself has been going on for years now. It doesn't seem like an emergency to people after 5 years, and in Africa there is always a war going on.
I also think regarding your second point, the UK had a big role in the situations in Iraq, Syria and North Africa, but UK people never asked for that responsibility. The Iraq war was incredibly unpopular, the Arab Spring was bewildering, the government created the situtation, but not for any reason that UK people can identify with

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's a very narrow-minded view. I know/knew loads of people from other EU countries who came to live in London and taken advantage of the opportunities here, not always shit conditions or shit money.

London is historically an aberration in terms of the prospects of European immigrants, though, as are Birmingham and Manchester. That's been the case for at least 400 years. In many other cities the prospects are not, and have never been, rosy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Anecdotes are great, aren't they? Most of my EU co-workers/friends in the past/present are unskilled/low-skilled. Non-EU highly skilled/educated but unable to access opportunities. What access to opportunities do we all have outside of 'narrow' m/c London experience and without requisite social networks/capital, financial means, welfare state support etc? I know why they come to the UK, and they're getting screwed while they're here.

Even the more skilled artisans and professionals that come here, are exploited in both the classical Marxist definition and the traditional definition of the word.

 

[bimble]

In the morning I'll be sober but you'll be.. confused? Xenophobic? I don't know you but the idea of communities taking back control of who gets to live next door stinks, to me anyway.
Can't find it now but saw a composite image the other day on twitter of the last few hundred Daily Mail headlines about Migrants Coming Over Here to Steal Your Job and your Wife.
And they are not letting up with their incitement, there's this news today for example.
This is where I think my anger belongs anyway, at the people who print shit like this.

 

[ViolentPanda]

More like - I don't even know my neighbours, and maybe I don't want to know them. The concept of 'community' is itself a very disputed notion.

Not really. The concept isn't generally disputed at community level - we tend to know that it encompasses multiple different elements and sub-communities - but generally at academic and legislative level, where the term gets used as a signifier for everything from ethnicity to religion to sexuality.

 

[Maggot]

But even if we leave purely monetary concerns aside of course someones real ability to migrate is related to their class.

How is it related to their class?

 

[Skyfallsz]

In the morning I'll be sober but you'll be.. confused? Xenophobic? I don't know you but the idea of communities taking back control of who gets to live next door stinks, to me anyway.
Can't find it now but saw a composite image the other day on twitter of the last few hundred Daily Mail headlines about Migrants Coming Over Here to Steal Your Job and your Wife.
And they are not letting up with their incitement, there's this news today for example.
This is where I think my anger belongs anyway, at the people who print shit like this.
View attachment 89249

The problem is exactly that it's not xenophobic to be concerned about mass movement of people and it's not xenophobic to find it all confusing either

Daily Mail and that do just tell a lot of lies to make money from people's fears, but this narrative that if you think that if you think that a country should have control of it's borders then you must be a bit racist and ignorant is exactly why crap like the Daily Mail still gets away with it. Just calling people names doesn't make them listen to you

 

[ViolentPanda]

People not having control of who lives in their communities is a massive issue and the fact that they feel that they don't seems to be one of the main factors in the rise of the far right

Of course not like you have to vote on everybody who moves into your road, but at the level where it disrupts peoples lives in a big way, of course it's going to cause trouble. Like in Calais being an extreme example, whatever you think of the people in the camps and the situation overall, nobody would like that to happen to their town, not because the people are foreign, just because there are a lot of them and they are displaced

I don't give a fuck who lives in my community, as long as they don't prey on it, and are respectful of those within it. I don't, however, expect my community to share my views. They will, however, get to hear them if they decide they want to effect a closed community.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How is it related to their class?

Because the "lower" your social class, the more tenuous your link to the sort of social and financial "capital" necessary to make a go of emigration. That equation pertains as much now as it did 130 years ago, when the first Aliens Act was considered.

 

[Skyfallsz]

I don't give a fuck who lives in my community, as long as they don't prey on it, and are respectful of those within it. I don't, however, expect my community to share my views. They will, however, get to hear them if they decide they want to effect a closed community.

Yes but it needs to be closed to those who prey on it. Like I said, of course I don't mean that people get to vote on which families get to move in etc

 

[ska invita]

Because the "lower" your social class, the more tenuous your link to the sort of social and financial "capital" necessary to make a go of emigration. That equation pertains as much now as it did 130 years ago, when the first Aliens Act was considered.

or makes you all the more desperate to have to emigrate by all means necessary

I don't give a fuck who lives in my community, as long as they don't prey on it, and are respectful of those within it. I don't, however, expect my community to share my views. They will, however, get to hear them if they decide they want to effect a closed community.

well put

 

[ska invita]

Yes but it needs to be closed to those who prey on it. Like I said, of course I don't mean that people get to vote on which families get to move in etc

What are you on about now? Closed to those who prey on it? As in who?

 

[Skyfallsz]

What are you on about now? Closed to those who prey on it? As in who?

Nasty buggers

To be honest, I've got to go to bed and I probably aren't making any sense. I try to write long posts and they even make less sense so I just delete them

 

[ViolentPanda]

I am interested in how this thread has developed. People picking who gets to live around them/ in their communities?

I am trying to imagine this... What happens to those people who are not 'desirable'?

Surely this method could only work 'fairly' if the starting point for all was one of equality?

It's an ignorance that equates "desirable" to "conforms to my personal dipshit opinions on who is acceptable" in the minds of some. My personal worry is that when the govt gives you the "choice" to do something like that, it isn't because they believe in peace 'n' love.

 

[Maggot]

Because the "lower" your social class, the more tenuous your link to the sort of social and financial "capital" necessary to make a go of emigration.

And you have less to lose by emigrating.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The problem is exactly that it's not xenophobic to be concerned about mass movement of people and it's not xenophobic to find it all confusing either

Daily Mail and that do just tell a lot of lies to make money from people's fears, but this narrative that if you think that if you think that a country should have control of it's borders then you must be a bit racist and ignorant is exactly why crap like the Daily Mail still gets away with it. Just calling people names doesn't make them listen to you

The media aren't motivated by "making money from people's fears" as much as by pandering to prejudices in order to "control" the readership/viewership. There's a reason that politicians cultivate media barons.