POLL: Free movement of people - Yes or No

[redsquirrel]

I didnt like the two options in the eu referendum so i didnt vote in it. I didnt support their deals and their terms. You did, so I dont see why youre having such a hard time with it now.

Sorry but get stuffed, I did no such thing. You've got two people on this thread who are arguing that class isn't a factor in FoM and you're coming out with this rubbish. Come on.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well that's my problem, you've already accepted that people should argue for a deal balancing keeping FoM for remaining in the free trade zone, can't you see that that is playing on their terms?

Why should we have accept their deals?

I agree with this. You can also apply this to the referendum, though.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I didnt like the two options in the eu referendum so i didnt vote in it. I didnt support their deals and their terms. You did, so I dont see why youre having such a hard time with it now.

That's not fair. redsquirrel didn't do that.

 

[ska invita]

Disappointed with the lack of votes for limiting migration, especially from lexiters

 

[butchersapron]

Another shit thread. Not quite as bad as when it is ok for the left to get in bed with the far right you racist twats. Not that i'm calling anyone a racist.

Seriously, you might as well do a poll on things with nice names and if you like nice names - that's all this is. Freedom. You can't be against freedom can you?

 

[seventh bullet]

Yep, this is another load of 'You're racist' shite from ska.

It's not about whether they have the means to live and work elsewhere, it's about whether they are allowed to live and work elsewhere.

Economic compulsion (freedom) to move elsewhere to work in shit conditions for shit money. Or without the ability (money/skills/education) in the richer states to leave where you are and take opps elsewhere. Both are crap for w/c people.

 

[discokermit]

what about changing the title from ''free movement of people'' to ''forced economic migration of workers''?

 

[DotCommunist]

jimmy nail singlehandedly rebuilt post war germany if you recall.

 

[seventh bullet]

what about changing the title from ''free movement of people'' to ''forced economic migration of workers''?

Why are you against freedom you racist?

 

[chilango]

The pertinent question, and one that isn't being asked anytime soon, is not should people have freedom of movement, but should communities have control over who joins them?

 

[Treacle Toes]

The pertinent question, and one that isn't being asked anytime soon, is not should people have freedom of movement, but should communities have control over who joins them?

Explain that to me please, especially why you think it's a pertinent question? Also can you be clear on what you mean by 'community'?

 

[chilango]

Explain that to me please, especially why you think it's a pertinent question? Also can you be clear on what you mean by 'community'?

Right.

I have vague memories of a conversation I had in the Navajo nation...during which time it was explained to me that anyone, Navajo or not, could move in and live in the Navajo communities, but with the proviso that their neighbours agreed to it.

Now, in smaller, more rural communities you could easily imagine a similar scenario playing out hypothetically. An incomer wants to move in, the community discusses it and decides whether they want it to happen or not.

Seems fine to me.

Now, in larger, more transient populations such matters are far more complex. partly because of scale, partly because of pace and partly because the concept of community is less easily nailed down. But still a possible starting point. After all who better to make judgements about whether a community would benefit from "incomers" than the community itself.

*By community, I'm using geographical populations as a starting point (village, street, block of flats, whatever) rather than ethno/cultural/religious/social groups.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It does make me laugh when some people challenge what freedom of movement means. When you can get a Megabus from Poland to London for £30, we have real freedom of movement. I believe freedom of movement is a good thing within the EU, what concerns me is the idea of Schengen. It's useful to actually have some checks and balances on who people are and where they're going.

That's "freedom of movement" mostly for people who have 40 Euros or so spare, connections in London, and some idea of what the hell they can do when they get here. Thankfully the days of shelters being rammed with homeless eastern Europeans searching for streets paved with gold are over. What we get now are mostly petit bourgeois tradespeople, quasi-professionals and artisans whose intentions are to be able to sock away some money over 3 to 5 years by working hard, then go home with enough savings to put some money down on a house or land.

Schengen, and the "isolating" of the UK, is a dog's breakfast of an idea that only really works to prevent one sort of migratory flow, and even then, only works if migrants use conventional means of entry. It's expensive political tosh, because it doesn't fulfill the purpose that the UK govt gives it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's not about whether they have the means to live and work elsewhere, it's about whether they are allowed to live and work elsewhere.

"Means", as ever, are crucially important. In terms of social capital as well as financial means. Money opens doors that "allow" you to live and work elsewhere. That much has been obvious for at least the last 30 years of immigration policy.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Right.

I have vague memories of a conversation I had in the Navajo nation...during which time it was explained to me that anyone, Navajo or not, could move in and live in the Navajo communities, but with the proviso that their neighbours agreed to it.

Now, in smaller, more rural communities you could easily imagine a similar scenario playing out hypothetically. An incomer wants to move in, the community discusses it and decides whether they want it to happen or not.

Seems fine to me.

Now, in larger, more transient populations such matters are far more complex. partly because of scale, partly because of pace and partly because the concept of community is less easily nailed down. But still a possible starting point. After all who better to make judgements about whether a community would benefit from "incomers" than the community itself.

*By community, I'm using geographical populations as a starting point (village, street, block of flats, whatever) rather than ethno/cultural/religious/social groups.

"No blacks, no Irish..."

Sorry, I think that's an appalling idea. I don't want to have a say over who my neighbour is. Maybe that's more a city thing, but I don't think it should be up to me. And such a system would simply be exploited by those with social capital and capital capital to keep out their definition of undesirables. Massively divisive.

 

[chilango]

"No blacks, no Irish..."

Sad that that's your first thought on this.

Sorry, I think that's an appalling idea. I don't want to have a say over who my neighbour is. Maybe that's more a city thing, but I don't think it should be up to me.

Well, it wouldn't just be you would it?

And such a system would simply be exploited by those with social capital and capital capital to keep out their definition of undesirables. Massively divisive

As already happens. But with no real community control of the process.

Anyway, I'm not claiming to have the answer here, just a starting point for discussion.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sad that that's your first thought on this.
.

My first thought was that such a system would lead to certain groups being excluded out of prejudice. That was the point of that.

 

[chilango]

My first thought was that such a system would lead to certain groups being excluded out of prejudice. That was the point of that.

Again, that's sad, if your first thought of how people would react is in prejudice.

 

[chilango]

But littlebabyjesus if not the community, then who? Where would you start?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But littlebabyjesus if not the community, then who? Where would you start?

Again, I may be betraying a city mind set. But nobody decides who lives where, not in that planned way. The very idea of community is something that constantly changes and doesn't belong to any one group.

 

[chilango]

Again, I may be betraying a city mind set. But nobody decides who lives where, not in that planned way. The very idea of community is something that constantly changes and doesn't belong to any one group.

The invisible hand of the market then

 

[Pickman's model]

i believe in the most part in free movement of people but people like donald trump make me think there ought to be the occasional exception.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sad that that's your first thought on this.

but not wholly surprising.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The invisible hand of the market then

Not denying there are massive problems and limits placed on people in practice by inequality. But this isn't the way to address that.

 

[Maggot]

Economic compulsion (freedom) to move elsewhere to work in shit conditions for shit money. Or without the ability (money/skills/education) in the richer states to leave where you are and take opps elsewhere. Both are crap for w/c people.

That's a very narrow-minded view. I know/knew loads of people from other EU countries who came to live in London and taken advantage of the opportunities here, not always shit conditions or shit money.

 

[Maggot]

As Sherman Tank mentioned, you can travel across Europe incredibly cheaply these days, so cost isn't a factor. Are you saying that working class people have some other impediments to stop them moving?

Still waiting for an answer to this redsquirrel

 

[killer b]

city mindset

we're different in the city. More welcoming of new people and experiences.

 

[seventh bullet]

That's a very narrow-minded view. I know/knew loads of people from other EU countries who came to live in London and taken advantage of the opportunities here, not always shit conditions or shit money.

Anecdotes are great, aren't they? Most of my EU co-workers/friends in the past/present are unskilled/low-skilled. Non-EU highly skilled/educated but unable to access opportunities. What access to opportunities do we all have outside of 'narrow' m/c London experience and without requisite social networks/capital, financial means, welfare state support etc? I know why they come to the UK, and they're getting screwed while they're here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

city mindset

we're different in the city. More welcoming of new people and experiences.

More like - I don't even know my neighbours, and maybe I don't want to know them. The concept of 'community' is itself a very disputed notion.

 

[killer b]

More like - I don't even know my neighbours, and maybe I don't want to know them. The concept of 'community' is itself a very disputed notion.

Is that a city thing? Reckon it's the same everywhere tbh. Certainly is here.