POLL: Free movement of people - Yes or No

[ska invita]

Simple question which I reckon was actually at the heart of the EU referendum for the majority of people in one way or another. And even with the referendum over this one is still way up in the air.

Three options in this poll:
1. Yes, keep the status quo
2. Yes and expand the number of countries who can come here (and vice versa, we go there)
3. No - which covers the range of possible other more limited migration versions...feel free to elaborate what you think those should be.

 

[redsquirrel]

I don't think it's simple at all. What are you actually asking? Should the UK government do X? In an ideal case you would like X?

No offence, but I don't think this is a useful question to ask, there's too many unspoken assumptions beneath it. What does "free movement" actually mean? Free for who?

 

[ska invita]

I don't think it's simple at all. What are you actually asking? Should the UK government do X? In an ideal case you would like X?

No offence, but I don't think this is a useful question to ask, there's too many unspoken assumptions beneath it. What does "free movement" actually mean? Free for who?

Not in an ideal case, but in the case we have to deal with now, post exit referendum. Yes, what should the UK government do.

There is now a debate over what Brexit looks like. Political parties will be drawing up their desired policies on this.
People outside of that can put pressure on for one side or another.
There will be some left groupings who will campaign for continued free movement.
Others will say immigrations needs controlling in some way.
What side do you come down on?

And free movement means, in the first instance, the same as it exists now within the EU deal. Or more. Or less.

 

[redsquirrel]

And free movement means, in the first instance, the same as it exists now within the EU deal. Or more. Or less.

Well I think that's the problem right there, I think it's a nonsense to pretend what the EU calls free movement is any such thing. Does someone who left formal education at 16 and has only worked intermittently since have the same freedom of movement that I (a middle class academic) have? Of course not.

Like I said I don't see the point in asking this question on the basis you've set, I don't accept the assumption behind it, it involves buying into the nonsense spoken by politicians.

 

[ska invita]

Well I think that's the problem right there, I think it's a nonsense to pretend what the EU calls free movement is any such thing. Does someone who left formal education at 16 and has only worked intermittently since have the same freedom of movement that I (a middle class academic) have? Of course not.

Like I said I don't see the point in asking this question on the basis you've set, I don't accept the assumption behind it, it involves buying into the nonsense spoken by politicians.

You know what were talking about and its about to become a reality for millions of people.
Did you have an opinion on the referendum? Was that not buying into nonsense spoken by politicians?

 

[Skyfallsz]

I think the way that it is treated as a simple question is why we have this current shitshow. Free movement of people is of course a good thing, and it's only loons who are against people moving about, but in Europe it has been used a way to move problems about in the hope that they will disappear. I'm living in Poland at the moment and there is an issue for them that I had not thought of before coming here that they lose a high proportion of their skilled and ambitious people to the west because their economy can't compete with the western ones.
The idea that free movement is freedom is capitalist fiction, those African and Middle Eastern fellas aren't getting on those leaky boats because they always wanted to see Calais

edit: And the UK never negotiated a deal with any of the eastern countries they just said they can have access to EU citizenship. Germany did, Poland are only getting the chance for people to have movement to Germany and France now and they aren't that into it

 

[Maggot]

Well I think that's the problem right there, I think it's a nonsense to pretend what the EU calls free movement is any such thing. Does someone who left formal education at 16 and has only worked intermittently since have the same freedom of movement that I (a middle class academic) have? Of course not.

It's not about whether they have the means to live and work elsewhere, it's about whether they are allowed to live and work elsewhere.

 

[ska invita]

I think the way that it is treated as a simple question is why we have this current shitshow. Free movement of people is of course a good thing, and it's only loons who are against people moving about, but in Europe it has been used a way to move problems about in the hope that they will disappear. I'm living in Poland at the moment and there is an issue for them that I had not thought of before coming here that they lose a high proportion of their skilled and ambitious people to the west because their economy can't compete with the western ones.
The idea that free movement is freedom is capitalist fiction, those African and Middle Eastern fellas aren't getting on those leaky boats because they always wanted to see Calais

yes...brain drain some people call it...

 

[DexterTCN]

What is the opposite of free movement?

 

[Orang Utan]

This is probably not the best thread to say this, but this referendum has made me question everything i know and hold dear. it has made me question everything, not joking.

 

[ska invita]

What is the opposite of free movement?

restricted movement?

 

[DexterTCN]

restricted movement?

Well...I'm voting for freedom of movement

It's important to vote.

 

[ska invita]

Well...I'm voting for freedom of movement

It's important to vote.

you have done your duty citizen

 

[Skyfallsz]

yes...brain drain some people call it...

and imagine how extreme that is for middle east and africa!

Those places they also have to compete with Asia to keep their best workers (Europe does as well, but it's still a tiny percent of Europeans who are going to Asia and staying there long term)

It seems like you have to be extremely high class in those places to not be able to get a better deal in Europe or Asia. With what is going on at the moment it's hard to see it getting better for those countries because the amount of people with means leaving is insane. I think it may even be creating a worse situation than Europeans invading them

 

[DexterTCN]

If I want to contribute...it's only fair

 

[Sherman Tank]

It does make me laugh when some people challenge what freedom of movement means. When you can get a Megabus from Poland to London for £30, we have real freedom of movement. I believe freedom of movement is a good thing within the EU, what concerns me is the idea of Schengen. It's useful to actually have some checks and balances on who people are and where they're going.

 

[Skyfallsz]

This is probably not the best thread to say this, but this referendum has made me question everything i know and hold dear. it has made me question everything, not joking.

That is what you have to do to stop being stupid! All the time!

Confucius and all that, only stupid people are sure about their opinions

 

[Skyfallsz]

What is the opposite of free movement?

constipation?

 

[Ax^]

What is the opposite of free movement?

Norfolk

 

[ska invita]

Of course in practice a vote to expand the area of free movement would lead to a massive surge of angry exit voters going to the far right.
Keeping the status quo may even do the same.

 

[redsquirrel]

You know what were talking about and its about to become a reality for millions of people.
Did you have an opinion on the referendum? Was that not buying into nonsense spoken by politicians?

My opinion was that both offical sides of the debate were wankers, I voted for Leave in the referendum because I believed that it would open greater possibilities for labour, I still believe this (and you're ignoring the difference between an activity with an opinion). Look at the post below, already the question has been reduced to one of legality, twenty posts and already two of them have explicitly written class out. Is that useful? Not to me.

It's not about whether they have the means to live and work elsewhere, it's about whether they are allowed to live and work elsewhere.

For you perhaps, not for me or for those of us who with class based politics.

 

[ska invita]

sounds like youre dodging answering the question to me

 

[redsquirrel]

OK then what do you think about Maggot's and Sherman Tanks dismissal of class? Do you think that's a helpful perspective to take?

I'm not dodging the question I'm saying that you've accepted a whole load of (IMO) false assumptions such that the question is useless. I mean what about the question below, is that useful? (If you're thinking about the question of FoM in the OP it's certainly something you need to think about as the way you've defined the question the two are inextricably linked.)

Should the UK have free trade agreements with the countries in the EU?

1. Yes keep it as is
2. Yes and make the area bigger
3. No it needs limiting

And after answering the question what then? Are you arguing that people push the government to maintain the current FoM? (Or expand it?) What actions are coming from this? How does this relate back to the actions we take in our communities?

 

[Maggot]

For you perhaps, not for me or for those of us who with class based politics.

No, this is the question ska invita was asking.

 

[Orang Utan]

it's not fair, redsquirrel , you've just had your breakfast

 

[ska invita]

OK then what do you think about Maggot's and Sherman Tanks dismissal of class? Do you think that's a helpful perspective to take?

I'm not dodging the question I'm saying that you've accepted a whole load of (IMO) false assumptions such that the question is useless. I mean what about the following question, is that useful? If you're asking the question about FoM in the OP it's certainly one you need to think about as the way you've defined the question the two are inextricably linked.

Should the UK have free trade agreements with the countries in the EU?

1. Yes keep it as is
2. Yes and make the area bigger
3. No it needs limiting

And after answering the question what then? Are you arguing that people push the government to maintain the current FoM? (Or expand it?) What actions are coming from this? How does this relate back to the actions we take in our communities?

I presumed people would know that keeping free movement - if that is even achievable, which is far from certain - would mean keeping the deals in place to allow that to happen.

 

[redsquirrel]

No, this is the question ska invita was asking.

This post illustrates the problem precisely. Class cannot be mentioned as a factor.

it's not fair, redsquirrel , you've just had your breakfast

Special K

 

[redsquirrel]

I presumed people would know that keeping free movement - if that is even achievable, which is far from certain - would mean keeping the deals in place to allow that to happen.

Well that's my problem, you've already accepted that people should argue for a deal balancing keeping FoM for remaining in the free trade zone, can't you see that that is playing on their terms?

Why should we have accept their deals?

 

[Maggot]

This post illustrates the problem precisely. Class cannot be mentioned as a factor.

As Sherman Tank mentioned, you can travel across Europe incredibly cheaply these days, so cost isn't a factor. Are you saying that working class people have some other impediments to stop them moving?

 

[ska invita]

Well that's my problem, you've already accepted that people should argue for a deal balancing keeping FoM for remaining in the free trade zone, can't you see that that is playing on their terms?

Why should we have accept their deals?

err....becasue we have no power?

okay, how about you set out what your dream deal is, one that doesnt play on their terms.

in the meantime one of two options in the poll will come to pass - of course on their terms - on the terms of those in power, not us sitting up posting on the internet. Which would you prefer out of the two options?

I didnt like the two options in the eu referendum so i didnt vote in it. I didnt support their deals and their terms. You did, so I dont see why youre having such a hard time with it now.