Polish Migrants Get Organised.

[durruti02]

durruti - you and your one issue.

Yes, SP and yes migrant workers can be used - as can 'local' workers. I would agree with MC5 though that this is only one factor among many and one that is completely overstated. You are one of the classic examples of that overstatement - its almost obsessive mate.

I'd prefer to respond to the fears of folk not on this website, I think it is a bit pointless responding to you personally - you have clearly got a bee in your bonnet on this one issue. I wonder if this is anything to do with some sort of need to beat what you see as a failure of the liberal left (to which I think you would include the SWP).

On your other point about the role of the soft left - I don't think they are the main cause of peoples fears. The lefts ideas (liberal or otherwise) are, largely, irrelevant when you look at the actual source of many of these fears - a constant media campaign and that of a government that is anything but 'left' alongside the actual economic policies and the actrual insecurity that creates. The government is the ex-party of the working man in the eyes of most - now its the party of neo-liberalism. At least work out what the real target is before shooting at it endlessly. They want fear - your endless round arguements about immigration help to reinforce that.

You are not encouraging 'honest' debate - you seem to be obssessing on a single point, and have done for months, that plays some role in your own rejection of a particular politics you now disagree with. What do you do practicaly apart from posts on this bulletin board?

What about the other issues working class people face? what about the things that could cut across division between workers? why after all these months are you still obssesed with this one theme - do you really think it is the major one in the majority of peoples day-to-day lives? (I hope you don't say 'culture' and 'history' )

oh - and the other point about the union leaderships being crap - surprise me...

me and my one issue??? in recent weeks i have posted about the bnp ( against by the way) , harmansworth ( supportting it being burnt down b4 you ask) , ISS workers at goldman sacks ( supportting b4 u ask), rod stewart ( er supportting b4 u ask!!) and a HI public meeting.. however i do think this is a key issue which needs resolving

i work with HI and am a shop steward and have been off and on at the same place for many years. the work force where I am is low waged and has along with other manual sections been at the brunt of neo liberalism for many years and we have seen our wages go down significnatly as part of this process.

i have NEVER suggestted that immigration is more than just one part of the neo liberal platform .. however in recent years it has become a key one .. do you deny that on a league table it would currently be near the top of tools the bosses are using?

i am only too aware of ALL the other issues people talk about .. i deal with them day in day out inmy life and work and political activity and it is that that teaches me my politics .. unlike most people on here who i suspect have a purely academic interest .. at work it is pensions and outsourcing ( AGAIIN!!) and with HI it is housing conditions, asb etc etc

BUT it remains a fact that the inability to resist neo liberalism is today significantly due to the fact that we have lost control of labour , something we took for granted and what trade unions spent almost ALL there effort on, as they understood that once you have lost this, YOU CAN NOT WIN ON ANYTHING ELSE!!! ( EMPHASIS, NOT SHOUTING ) .. note e.g. the South Wales Miners Fed campaign for 100% union throughout the 30ts ... a long hard slog but it paved the way for the NUM and way higher wages and TnCs

where we once had the closed shop we now have a race to the bottom with the bosses importing labour at will whether at irish ferries or heathrow or wherever. untill we challenge the ability of the bosses to import labour at will EVERYTHING else is useless. sure we casn attempt to unionise , but many short term immigrnats are not interested .. and why should they?? they want to make some money and go home .. and fair play to them , but it progreses the class struggle not at all

mate we NEED to talk openly about this to people. the left have become a laughing stock at this denial that i) initially it was happenning at all 2) that it has any affect on wages..

THAT is why i bang on about it on urban ..

 

[exosculate]

me and my one issue??? in recent weeks i have posted about the bnp ( against by the way) , harmansworth ( supportting it being burnt down b4 you ask) , ISS workers at goldman sacks ( supportting b4 u ask), rod stewart ( er supportting b4 u ask!!) and a HI public meeting.. however i do think this is a key issue which needs resolving

i work with HI and am a shop steward and have been off and on at the same place for many years. the work force where I am is low waged and has along with other manual sections been at the brunt of neo liberalism for many years and we have seen our wages go down significnatly as part of this process.

i have NEVER suggestted that immigration is more than just one part of the neo liberal platform .. however in recent years it has become a key one .. do you deny that on a league table it would currently be near the top of tools the bosses are using?

i am only too aware of ALL the other issues people talk about .. i deal with them day in day out inmy life and work and political activity and it is that that teaches me my politics .. unlike most people on here who i suspect have a purely academic interest .. at work it is pensions and outsourcing ( AGAIIN!!) and with HI it is housing conditions, asb etc etc

BUT it remains a fact that the inability to resist neo liberalism is today significantly due to the fact that we have lost control of labour , something we took for granted and what trade unions spent almost ALL there effort on, as they understood that once you have lost this, YOU CAN NOT WIN ON ANYTHING ELSE!!! ( EMPHASIS, NOT SHOUTING ) .. note e.g. the South Wales Miners Fed campaign for 100% union throughout the 30ts ... a long hard slog but it paved the way for the NUM and way higher wages and TnCs

where we once had the closed shop we now have a race to the bottom with the bosses importing labour at will whether at irish ferries or heathrow or wherever. untill we challenge the ability of the bosses to import labour at will EVERYTHING else is useless. sure we casn attempt to unionise , but many short term immigrnats are not interested .. and why should they?? they want to make some money and go home .. and fair play to them , but it progreses the class struggle not at all

mate we NEED to talk openly about this to people. the left have become a laughing stock at this denial that i) initially it was happenning at all 2) that it has any affect on wages..

THAT is why i bang on about it on urban ..

I admire your tenaciousness on this durruti, unfortunately it is a lost cause arguing with the vast majority of the small splintered left that exists in the UK. Especially anyone with trot sympathies, they will align with the neo-liberals to their dying death it would appear on this one.

They appear to see the well being of poor workers from abroad as more important than the indigenous working class. Whilst that may have some validity in a theoretical sense in a practical sense the position disengages them from dialogue with the indigenous working class.

 

[durruti02]

to put this another way "unless we go on and on and on about the issue of immigtration to the virtual exclusion of the million and one other issues effecting working class people and pandering to an agenda

It just a bit of luck you only talk about this mate - you would be a real danger if your approach was actually taken up given the failure of the trade unions and the labour party in power.

oh yeah! a real danger please say why? please actually bother to read what i said mate .. ok?

an approach of listenning to people??? .. of attacking bosses sacking workers and replacing them with cheap labour .. of stopping bosses recruit abroad when we have 1 / 1.7 / 3 million ( depending on who you belive) unemployed .. forcing companies to recruit locally .. forcing companies to take young people on and train them .. supportting sustainable employment .. supportting the closed shop .. supportting workers having secure employment .. forcing employers to keep to labour laws and the minimum wage .. stopping employers using illegal workers with no rights .. stopping gang masters operating .. supportting legalisation of illegal workers .. organising immigrnat workers .. supportting massive investement in education and trainig so we do not NEED to recruit from abroad .. stopping the insanities of teh capitalist sytem treast people as commodities to be traded back and forth across countires just to increases profits

this is dangerous?? you are against this??

and you know something?? .. i suspect of all you boys on here I am the only one who is actively working / meeting with immigrant workers, the only one trying to get them took on on proper contracts instead of bullshit agency contracts ..

 

[audiotech]

er the clear link made between the SWP and MAB etc ...

So, specifically on the SWP and MAB (who, or what is etc btw?), it appears you are saying they organise on the basis of race? Funny, because it's obvious to all but the ultra-lefts that they have come together to oppose the war?

 

[audiotech]

skilled movement is just to save money for profits going on training .. you know it mate ..

So, are you going to ban skilled workers from living and working abroad, or not in your ultra-left fantasy world?

 

[treelover]

Exo, don't you know its 'wacist' to say that...



.

They appear to see the well being of poor workers from abroad as more important than the indigenous working class. Whilst that may have some validity in a theoretical sense in a practical sense the position disengages them from dialogue with the indigenous working class.

 

[treelover]

The way the far left think they have got it right and everyone else is wrong reminds me of the old parade ground saying: 'oh look ,everyones out of step except our Johnny'

 

[portman]

oh yeah! a real danger please say why? please actually bother to read what i said mate .. ok?

an approach of listenning to people??? .. of attacking bosses sacking workers and replacing them with cheap labour .. of stopping bosses recruit abroad when we have 1 / 1.7 / 3 million ( depending on who you belive) unemployed .. forcing companies to recruit locally .. forcing companies to take young people on and train them .. supportting sustainable employment .. supportting the closed shop .. supportting workers having secure employment .. forcing employers to keep to labour laws and the minimum wage .. stopping employers using illegal workers with no rights .. stopping gang masters operating .. supportting legalisation of illegal workers .. organising immigrnat workers .. supportting massive investement in education and trainig so we do not NEED to recruit from abroad .. stopping the insanities of teh capitalist sytem treast people as commodities to be traded back and forth across countires just to increases profits

this is dangerous?? you are against this??

and you know something?? .. i suspect of all you boys on here I am the only one who is actively working / meeting with immigrant workers, the only one trying to get them took on on proper contracts instead of bullshit agency contracts ..

Spot on mate! The problem is that the vast majority of the left has become so obsessed with identity politics that they see every issue through its skewed perspective. Particularly immigration. Which means they don't seem to bat an eyelid when the likes of the CBI - not exactly the most progressive of organisations - endorse the idea of more open borders and the free movement of labour. Now to most right thinking progressives, this should set a few alarm bells ringing.

Surely it's obvious the CBI have a base motive - to drive down labour costs as far as possible. So the immigrants are brought in, all too often on piss poor terms, and exploited something rotten. But it doesn't end there - we are all dragged to a greater or lesser degree into the race for the bottom.

Yet if anyone questions the role of immigration, there is an immediate chorus of 'racist, racist!!' To those people, we are not questioning their right to search for work that is better paid than in their homeland - all we are doing is to expose the role the likes of the CBI seem to have allotted them...

 

[audiotech]

Spot on mate! The problem is that the vast majority of the left has become so obsessed with identity politics that they see every issue through its skewed perspective. Particularly immigration. Which means they don't seem to bat an eyelid when the likes of the CBI - not exactly the most progressive of organisations - endorse the idea of more open borders and the free movement of labour. Now to most right thinking progressives, this should set a few alarm bells ringing.

Surely it's obvious the CBI have a base motive - to drive down labour costs as far as possible. So the immigrants are brought in, all too often on piss poor terms, and exploited something rotten. But it doesn't end there - we are all dragged to a greater or lesser degree into the race for the bottom.

Yet if anyone questions the role of immigration, there is an immediate chorus of 'racist, racist!!' To those people, we are not questioning their right to search for work that is better paid than in their homeland - all we are doing is to expose the role the likes of the CBI seem to have allotted them...

Just to remind you the OP was about Polish Migrants getting organised to oppose low pay by employers, who exploit migrants (some perhaps who are CBI members?). So, what does this supposed "racist chorus" you mention have relevance here, even when it is clearly not being uttered by anyone?

Why would the CBI want to see develop a low paid and by implication a low skilled workforce? The last thing I imagine that they would want to see is a workforce with low literacy and numerate skills afterall. I would also expect that the CBI would like to see a workforce with high disposable incomes to buy the goods they put on sale.

 

[audiotech]

i suspect of all you boys on here I am the only one who is actively working / meeting with immigrant workers, the only one trying to get them took on on proper contracts instead of bullshit agency contracts ..

Well you would be the only one wouldn't you. I've news for you - you're not.

I would hope that when you meet immigrants you would expose “the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power”?

 

[audiotech]

They appear to see the well being of poor workers from abroad as more important than the indigenous working class. Whilst that may have some validity in a theoretical sense in a practical sense the position disengages them from dialogue with the indigenous working class.

The "well being of poor workers from abroad" as you so condescendingly put is about fighting for unity and against racism - a priority today I would have thought.

In the 19th century, Karl Marx argued that the antagonism of English workers towards Irish immigrants was “the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power”. Hostility against today's immigrants serves the same purpose that is why it is challenged. I'm sorry you don't see it as "important".

It's galling that even when the far-right, political pundits and the establishment are pretending to champion the cause of indigenous workers, they also dismiss them as “chavs” and "binge drinkers", fit only for anti-social behaviour orders.

 

[portman]

Just to remind you the OP was about Polish Migrants getting organised to oppose low pay by employers, who exploit migrants (some perhaps who are CBI members?). So, what does this supposed "racist" "chorus" you mention have relevance here?

I doubt very much that the CBI as an employers organisation would want to see develop a low paid and by implication a low skilled workforce. The last thing that they would want to see is a workforce with low literacy and numerate skills. I would also expect that the CBI would also like to see a workforce with high disposable incomes to buy the goods they produce.

No problem at all with Polish (or any other migrants) getting organised against exploitation. The more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. As for the accusations of 'racist', it has come up on a number of threads and seems to be a general undercurrent with some posters on this board with anyone who questions the role of immigration. As I've previously stated, I've no problem with people moving from one country to another to find work, all I want to question is the role that seems to be ascribed to an influx of immigrants who seem destined to get exploited.

What worries me is your benign take on the CBI. Sure they probably want a skilled workforce and one that is willing to graft BUT at lower wage rates than the rest of us have been used to. That is the key point that some of us have been trying to make. The CBI aren't a benevolent organisation - they respresent a particular interest who want to push labour costs down to the minimum. High disposable incomes? Welcome to the fundamental contradiction of capitalism - the need for low paid workers AND plenty of customers in the shops

 

[.r.u.i.n.e.d]

I think it's of some significance that when the labour party was a socialist party, they opposed becoming part of the common market, while the conservatives made Britain become part of it. - and in fact sold the idea to the public on the grounds of joining the common market. The conservative opposition to Europe was largely due later to objections to Europe imposing social legislation to enforce minimum standards of worker protection on Britain. This was dressed up as being an issue of sovereignty, (which in fairness it was to some not very bright tories) - but strangely, the issue of british sovereignty doesn't seem to bother many MP's of either party when it comes to our national destiny being under the control of the USA.

It's also probably of some significance that the labour party dropped its opposition at about the same time that it ceased to be a socialist party.
Possibly those who wished to make Britain a socialist country realised that this would be impossible without some clear definition of who was a citizen and who wasn't, - and that would it be impossible to create a socialist country if you counted everyone who came here as if they were citizens.

The unique british optout from "the social chapter" has continued, and probably helps our economy compete effectively against the economies of other European countries. Why they don't chuck us out of the union for unfairly undercutting them, I don't know, - possibly London being the centre of the world economy has something to do with it. Smart guys these money people.

 

[exosculate]

Exo, don't you know its 'wacist' to say that...



.

Surely not!

 

[exosculate]

The "well being of poor workers from abroad" as you so condescendingly put is about fighting for unity and against racism -

Oh I see what you mean treelover.

 

[treelover]

btw, when the Welfare Reform bill comes in, it will be disabled people who will be used to fill in the gaps in the labour market, especially as the UK Govt plans to tighten up on the unskilled migrant labour market, and pushed into low wage/low status positions regardless of qualification. This is what has happened in australia where similar 'reforms' have been enacted. Can we look forwards to the same sort of solidarity and compassion that the far left gives to migrant workers? will we see a 'Justice For (disabled) Cleaners Campaign, somehow I really do doub't it,

Its not really about politics or even solidarity, its a left wing fetish...


awaits responses......

 

[audiotech]

No problem at all with Polish (or any other migrants) getting organised against exploitation. The more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. As for the accusations of 'racist', it has come up on a number of threads and seems to be a general undercurrent with some posters on this board with anyone who questions the role of immigration. As I've previously stated, I've no problem with people moving from one country to another to find work, all I want to question is the role that seems to be ascribed to an influx of immigrants who seem destined to get exploited.

What worries me is your benign take on the CBI. Sure they probably want a skilled workforce and one that is willing to graft BUT at lower wage rates than the rest of us have been used to. That is the key point that some of us have been trying to make. The CBI aren't a benevolent organisation - they respresent a particular interest who want to push labour costs down to the minimum. High disposable incomes? Welcome to the fundamental contradiction of capitalism - the need for low paid workers AND plenty of customers in the shops

Question the role destined for immigrants certainly. Challenge it too as it happens.

I would never see the CBI's role as "sublime". I'm not one who believes in a 'benevolent capitalism' - as it appears to New Labour and it's supporters.

However, corporate Britain is the reality - both the reformist and revolutionary left exist and operate in these circumstances.

Until such a time as to when capitalism's contradictions become glaring and when the powers that be who control it cannot present a progressive future then, an important part of an individuals understanding is an economic and social analysis of the present.

 

[audiotech]

Oh I see what you mean treelover.

I said you were condescending. If condescending means 'racist' to you then I apologise.

I notice that you're sly an' all.

 

[audiotech]

btw, when the Welfare Reform bill comes in, it will be disabled people who will be used to fill in the gaps in the labour market, especially as the UK Govt plans to tighten up on the unskilled migrant labour market, and pushed into low wage/low status positions regardless of qualification. This is what has happened in australia where similar 'reforms' have been enacted. Can we look forwards to the same sort of solidarity and compassion that the far left gives to migrant workers? will we see a 'Justice For (disabled) Cleaners Campaign, somehow I really do doub't it,

Its not really about politics or even solidarity, its a left wing fetish...


awaits responses......

A response indicating that I'm disabled and poor good enough? Maybe not.

I've never noticed a difference in solidarity and compassion from the left to one group above another myself. Do enlighten me with a few examples like?

 

[treelover]

well, i do think there is a 'hierarchy of oppression on the left, even in the past. For instance fighting for local issues was criticised as liberal pavement politics, much better to shouting Free Mandela,

 

[dennisr]

well, i do think there is a 'hierarchy of oppression on the left, even in the past. For instance fighting for local issues was criticised as liberal pavement politics, much better to shouting Free Mandela,

where as your hierarchy is simply to put brit workers over others ?
more than a touch of hypocrisy don't you think ?

starw man arguements - i suppose it keeps ypu smug and safe in your own illusions (just as you would accuse others of)

 

[kyser_soze]

Can I just ask - did the left and the TUs go through these kinds of debates etc during the last big waves of immigration during the 50s and 60s? Would it be worth revisiting them now?

 

[dennisr]

i work with HI and am a shop steward and have been off and on at the same place for many years. the work force where I am is low waged and has along with other manual sections been at the brunt of neo liberalism for many years and we have seen our wages go down significnatly as part of this process.

i have NEVER suggestted that immigration is more than just one part of the neo liberal platform .. however in recent years it has become a key one .. do you deny that on a league table it would currently be near the top of tools the bosses are using?

OK so as a shop steward you think the main issue to raise with your workforce is migrant workers taking our jobs?

You confuse what I would agree is one of the 'main' issues in media and genaral bourg. society propaganda with what is no where near the 'main' issue in workplaces. Or are you saying it is in your workplace?

What I mean by dangerous is simple - if you were to go on and on about immigration in your own material at your workplace to the exclusion of the thousand and one other issues you end up simply reinforcing the 'popular' propaganda of the 'other' side and the feelings of powerlessness and fear. Part of the illusion created is that working class people are powerless - while we are divided and weakened on occasion, the level of disillusion and lack of confidence written in the subtext of your posts. These seems to say more about you than about the situation we face. The organisation of the migrant qworkers was one example of what is possible.

OK you do something on the ground and I apologise for putting you in the same catagory as some of the other posters here (I can get cynical on occasion too...). My own views are not plucked out of thin air - the main work I am involved in at the moment is housing issues and the nhs. My views are shaped by lived experience and activity - I just wonr why your activity does not make you see through the myopia shown by some on these boards as the irrelevence it actually is to most peoples day-to-day lives (unless we think most people think like the Sun or the Mail says they do)

THAT is why i bang on about it on urban ..

I get the feeling you bang on about it because you like a lot of folk here see your main enemy as the SWP style left and this is a difference you have that not only distances yourself from them but is also likely to wind them up. I don't think they are a major problem (a bigger problem to folk like me maybe but not in the real world...) or that important. Anymore than I think immigration (and banging on about it) is central to fighting neo-liberal policies. Immigration is not the central, deciding theme of neo-liberalism's agenda that you seem to be overplaying it to be.

There is also a lesser danger in that you constantly end up siding with some posters here who are everybit as shite as the more idiotic SWP posters on this site - while banging on about this issue you should also be honest about the arguements being put forward by your 'enemy's enemys'.

I supported the original poster on this thread because the almost immediate response was to attack the unionisation of those workers. durruti mentioned the irish ferries dispute - the SP played a key role in that movement and set the agenda via the earlier GAMA dispute. It wasn't about putting one group of workers over another in any fantasy heirarchy - it was about using a strategy to defeat neo-liberal assults on working peoples rights by contering the unity of those folk to that agenda. Setting one group of workers against another will weaken all of us

 

[dennisr]

btw, when the Welfare Reform bill comes in, it will be disabled people who will be used to fill in the gaps in the labour market, especially as the UK Govt plans to tighten up on the unskilled migrant labour market, and pushed into low wage/low status positions regardless of qualification. This is what has happened in australia where similar 'reforms' have been enacted. Can we look forwards to the same sort of solidarity and compassion that the far left gives to migrant workers? will we see a 'Justice For (disabled) Cleaners Campaign, somehow I really do doub't it,

Its not really about politics or even solidarity, its a left wing fetish...


awaits responses......

your mate baldwin will probably be arguing that disabled people should be kept out of 'non-disabled' workplaces (for thier own good apparently).

i would be arguing for the unionisation of those workers (fetishist that I must be...)


do you feel 'really hard done by' and sorry for yourself treelover? or is it just how I see it (probably because 'I loves johnny foriegner more than you and your disabled buddies' - in you head at least...). for fecks sake

 

[dennisr]

Can I just ask - did the left and the TUs go through these kinds of debates etc during the last big waves of immigration during the 50s and 60s? Would it be worth revisiting them now?

Thats a good question - I'd be interested in knowing what these debates were and were we could find out more about them

 

[tbaldwin]

your mate baldwin will probably be arguing that disabled people should be kept out of 'non-disabled' workplaces (for thier own good apparently).

What an infantile comment dennis...What exactly are you basing that on?

 

[tbaldwin]

VSO? Skilled workers have never been encouraged politically to migrate (get on their bikes and cycle to to some imaginary economic utopia here in the depression hit 80's certainly), but they still up sticks and go.

The economist had an interesting issue out on October the 7th talking about the benefits of economic migration to the US/UK etc....Pointing out that skilled workers were by far the most likely group of workers to move from poorer countries.

 

[audiotech]

The economist had an interesting issue out on October the 7th talking about the benefits of economic migration to the US/UK etc....Pointing out that skilled workers were by far the most likely group of workers to move from poorer countries.

Another dodge to the question I put to you sometime ago now about skilled workers here migrating. Remember it? How about an answer then?

 

[exosculate]

I said you were condescending. If condescending means 'racist' to you then I apologise.

I notice that you're sly an' all.

Its the fact you bring race into it at all that makes me laugh.

 

[tbaldwin]

Another dodge to the question I put to you sometime ago now about skilled workers here migrating. Remember it? How about an answer then?

Sorry MC can you remind me as im sure i would like to answer the question.