kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
WEll tbaldwin has said on a number of occassions that the free movement of people is wrong...
Polish Migrants Get Organised.
- Thread starter audiotech
- Start date
kyser_soze said:
the only free movement is walking, the rest costs...The supporters of so called free movement support the right to take the skilled workers from the poorest countries that most need them...Thats leads to a more unequal world...As a Socialist i oppose the free market and believe it should be regulated to protect those most in need.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Well that's a shock - a socialist who wants to tell people what to do 'for the good of themselves and others'
dennisr
the acceptable face
treelover said:
With some exceptions? - the entire establishment goes on and on about race - ethnicity and sexuality are both things, verbally at least, firmly tied into thier new agenda. They have made something which was a threat, which was a challenge to the previous version of monothought safe. Now we have a safe 'multi-culti' version of unchanging cultures to derail peoples understanding of the problems they face. Again, it is nothing new - this new monothought will be challenged and, eventually, the ruling ideas will change and bend to suit - taking the substance of the original challenge out of the resulting ideas. The one thing that is not acceptable is class. (although they constantly try to distort this in a thousand and one ways).
Baldwin follows this safely to one conclusion, the BNP to another, the local govenment bureaucracy to another, the dishers out of money to another, the media to another.What they all have in common is the results of thier ideas assist division and weakening of any possible fightback by the working class
If the 'left' consisted of a few poor interpreters of the SWPs line on this bulletin board you may have a point about the 'left'. They have always provided easy and foolish targets. But they do not represent the 'left'.
You seem to think that the failure (or at the very least diversion) of the government sponsored version of 'multiculturalism' (which is what you are getting at isn't it...) is some sort of revelation mate. Its not. its easy to set up a straw man you can then pull apart but it does not get us one step nearer a solution to the problems the vast majority of us face. And yes, its based in an understanding based on CLASS imo
I'm all for a working people getting a better deal.But Internationally and that means you have to look at the International consequences of the policies you support.dennisr said:
Supporting the Free market means increasing divisions.Poorer countries are losing the people they need most and people are dying unneccesarily due to a lack of those workers and the economic inequality that it enforces.
dennisr
the acceptable face
tbaldwin said:
unless it those feckin cheap labour poles eh? "send em back", eh?? - and you wont even give them a break when they attempt to join up with the wider british working class
tbaldwin said:
By sending the british prolatarians you love so much (well, except when it comes to actually doing feck all for them) to physically kick johnny foriegner out?? - yep, whole heap of good that'll do
I believe we have to live with the consequences of the ruling stratas international polices - one way of countering that is to put a clear UNITING class position forward. Another the one you ming on and on and on and on and on about is a fantasy one about somehow stopping people from moving - never quite get how you plan to do this, especially how you plan to do this in a way that keeps your 'local' working class independent of the boss class? - which position seems the more fantastical??
As usual baldwin you ignore entirely the other matters I have raised - like broken record - just repeat it enough times (and you must admit you have been going for the record as far as this point is concerned...!) and eventually you will convince us all to beleive it - is that the plan?? - the fantasy 'challenger' of ideas?
imo, you are either a troll or a complete moron mate
dennisr said:
1 er Where have i said i oppose poles being organised dennis?
2 Yeah course dennis thats it im always going around organising people to kick jonny foreigners out...
Your talking shit,you cant counter the arguements ive put so youve tried to pretend im a closet right winger/racist....Not too smart dennis...
How long have you been in the SP,dennis?
I wonder if weve met?
Taxamo Welf
kebagels pls
hmm, thoght someone might say that...kyser_soze said:
Yeah, i suppose not.
Taxamo Welf
kebagels pls
i've been reading thriugh the immig threads all day (and they go back for months on this debate): it would help then balders, if you said what you are proposing.tbaldwin said:
Greater immigration controls and border policing, including the deportation of illegal immigrants?
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
treelover said:
Inverse racism?
So, has any group on the far left organised on the basis of accepting only one particular race for membership? No. Has any far left group campaigned to repatriate any particular race? No. Does any far left group think one race is superior? No. Does any far left group target one race for vilification? No.
So, wtf are you on about?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
MC5 said:
Good Point. Well made.Really the only position he can take is to say 'No they can't go for the good of themselves and others'
dennisr
the acceptable face
tbaldwin said:
I've met loads of folk who won't answer the substance of a question - who ignore points they cannot answer and replace that with defensive crap about 'i'm not a bigot, but...' I don't really care weather you are or think you are a bigot or not.
What is the logical conclusion of your position? - Stop 'them' coming here. So how do you do that given - and we both agree on this point at least - it is not in the employers interest to do so. That is the contradiction you face given your position which is simply placing one section of the working class over another section.
Where does one stop - should scouse workers have priority for jobs in liverpool over brummies? how do you define who is a 'proper' scouser?
Despite all your intentions you end up as an unconcious tool of interests you claim to be opposed too. Despite all you protestations about how your fantasy version of the 'left' is unconciously supporting the agenda of neo-liberalism / the 'free' market etc the unconcious supporter of his enemies is you, mate. (and the irony of a new-labour apologist claiming to be arguing against a neo-liberal agenda when this is about the only thing that new labour still represent... but that is another arguement)
Now if you had made a genuine mistaken tactical assumption that would be one thing. If you had in the majority of your posts shown some wider interest in defending the working class people you talk about that would show some sort of balance. But baldwin you never have, have you??? on and on and on repeating the same obsessive agenda regardless of the 'challenges' made to that agenda. On and on for months. Yes, some of the replies are crude and equally mistaken - but when anything you cannot answer arrises you ignore it and accuse the person of some sort of simplistic catagorisation which is part of the 'failure' of the 'left'. Its an easyt kopout
A socialist position is to unite people through thier common interests - that is the only way to stop one group of workers being used against another - or to stop the neo-liberal agenda.
I don't have a moral position of condemnation of workers moving to another country to find better work and pay - I don't think it is, ultimately, going to really help those workers - but i understand the reasoning. The idea that we are going to be able to stop such movement (unless deemed by the ruling starta to serve their own interests... and even then it cannot be entirely 'successful') is a fantasy - people will fight to survive and they will fight to improve thier conditions by whatever means they find open to them.
So rather then ming on about how misundertood and misrepresented you are tell us how you are going to acheive your stated aim? and how this is going to assist working people??
MC5 said:
If they are going to countries where their skills are needed eg vso etc i think its a good thing...
If there just going to make us much money as they can in Australia the US,Hong Kong etc i dont think it is...But i wouldnt blame them individually for doing whatever they thought was best for themselves, but i would argue that politically we should not be encouraging this to happen...
And im strongly against giving a free H/E to people who then go to the US etc and make loads of money...
dennisr
the acceptable face
tbaldwin said:
I thougt it was the 'left' who evade arguements? - is that a 'reply', part of your 'challenge'??
The weirdest thing about your train of thought mate is how you constantly argue ideas as thier opposite.
As an internationalist I am opposed to attempts to control working class people - including thier movement. As an internationalist i am opposed to attempts to differenciate different levels of oppression of different sections of the working class - weather that be the place an individual member odf the working class happens to be born, the pigmentation in thier skin, etc etc etc etc. As an internationalist work towards an agenda which will assist that international working clas in working out the problems they face by unifying action - not by setting one section against another.
Try explaining you 'internationalism' to one of those polish workers you will be supporting bosses laws to stop coming to britain and see how much international solidarity that provokes.
Sorry, but do you want me to continue this circular arguement forever under the illusion we are having some sort of 'dialogue' when it is clear we are never going to agree. I am afraid I am not that interested having read your posts for months - i don't see nothing new.
The one thing of substance is the idea that it is not in the bosses interests at the moment in the uk to stop the arrival of migrant workers. You seem to feel this is something only you understand. I have never disagreed with the fact but my conclusion is completely different. I want to take the agenda out of the hands of the boss class and boss class ideas. The question is - how do we change the situation both migrant and non-migrant workers face as a result. The example from the original post is the approach I would support - not assisting division by talk of stopping foriegn workers, by pandering to boss created divisions. The end result of such a dirty compromise is not in the interests of working people and that is clear to just about everyone here except you
Poland needs skilled workers. The Economic growth of a nation like the UK is boosted but in the country you come from there is a shortage of skilled workers. Thats why various govt and local mayors etc have to the UK to try and tempt Polish workers home.dennisr said:
The answer to inequalities between nations is not to allow or encourage those that can to leave the poorer nations but reparations and international labour rules.
If your polish and have family at home do you really want to leave relatives at home,in a country that is losing all its skilled workers? Is that the kind of future you want for your families and friends,a nation of migrants who have to move to find work?
NotPavlov'sDog
New Member
Solidarnosc Sucks
It sucked in the 70's/80's, it sucks now. What it doesn't do is organise real workers in real trade unions in neo-clerical fascist Poland.
It sucked in the 70's/80's, it sucks now. What it doesn't do is organise real workers in real trade unions in neo-clerical fascist Poland.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
tbaldwin said:
VSO? I was talking about skilled workers - not middle-class students and their parents.
H/E? Ditto.
Skilled workers have never been encouraged politically to migrate (get on their bikes and cycle to to some imaginary economic utopia here in the depression hit 80's certainly), but they still up sticks and go.
How would you discourage them Mr 'Blameless' Baldwin?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
dennisr said:
Ive read some of these threads.Nothing wrong with unionising workers etc.Bit concerned about the attempted Union boycott of Peugout-who are moving there factory to Slovakia.It smacked of little Englander mentality.
I now work with or meet a lot of East Europeans.So ive got to know them quite well.Theres an amazing amount of ignorance about Eastern Europe in the West.Go into any bookshop and you will see shelves of books on WW2 and half a shelf on Eastern Europe.Ive borrowed films from Czechs and Poles and also read up on some of there history.
What i object to in some of these threads is the assumption "we" are all the same working class.In actual fact Western and Eastern Europeans have similarities and differences in there histories.The Cold war divide being the major one.There does seem to be a common European heritage-which explains why IMO why there has been so little friction considering the influx when they first joined the EU.
Some posts come across as saying these East Europeans are "integrating" to our ways they are now joing Trade Unions.Whats missing from many of these threads is that these people have a long history and culture that is there own.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Gramsci said:
Talk about missing the point...
Not one of the posts talk of integrating into 'our ways'. No one has ever said people do not have different experiences. Have you ever read a single word of your online-namesake Gramsci, mate???
I wish the liberal angst about 'respect for difference' was half one tenth as strong when it comes to genuinely supporting working people - whereever they are or wherever they may be from.
In Ireland the Socialist Party TD (like an MP in britain) Joe Higgins and the SP fought a hard battle alongside turkish worker's employed by the GAMA multi national construction company, the Irish state, crap trade unions 'leaders' and the establishment. They won a huge victory, they exposed the robbery and abuse of migrant workers on an industrial scale, they exposed the 'race to the bottom' of workers being used by this multi-national to cut all workers wages. They united working people - Irish and Turkish - in a way that academic crap and angst never can - both despite some differences of language, culture and history and because of common experience as working people (which i would argue is also part of culture and history...).
You can get a copy of the video with which you can either marvel at the turkish strikers 'exotic' dance routines or maybe (just maybe...) learn a little bit about the basic human solidarity built which defeated a vicious multinational despite men on site and familes at home in turkey being threatened, the attempt to starve the turkish workers (in thier company barracks) back to work (defeated by irish workers concrete solidarity - bringing food - maybe aware of a common experience from thier own history if you know feck about the Dublin lockout that is...?). etc etc etc which led to an average payout of 35.000 euros for the strikers, an end to 80 hour weeks, an end to no wage slips and an end to wages being stolen/secreted away into secret bank accounts in holland (unknown to the workers at the time...)
Watch the trailer and/or buy the video from here (scroll to the bottom of the page): http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/vids/videos.htm
the 'race to the bottom' can be halted by solidarity between workers - it won't be halted by irrelevant liberal crap (anymore than it will be halted by some other posters believing that we have to pander to divisive racist crap)
dennisr said:
dennisr could you be a bit clearer? what threads are you referring here?
"the endless threads on how we should all be joining in the chorus of 'brit jobs for brit workers' and playing the little englander like moronic king canutes doing the dirty work of the employers on thier behalf (often with the 'i'm not a bigot' proviso that 'one of my workmates is black and s/he is even more determined to stop jhonny foriegner taking our jobs then I am ..."
i am not sure what you are referring to ..
dennisr said:
dennis i appreciate you acknowledge that immigration is a key to the current neo liberal policies in this country
what i think you continue to deny, is the influence that the soppy lefts liberalism has on the wider w/c. Of course people like me and TB support this effort of the TnG to organise poles ... but as i have said before there needs to be a fundamnetal re aappraisal of the total left as to what immigration is and how it is being used IN THE CURRENT PERIOD ( emphais not shouting ) .
again many decent w/c people will look on this effort by the TnG and compare it with the TnG (and alls) absolute failure to support all w/c people generally over job losses pensions etc etc etc , so tied are they in with new labour .. i would like to think the best of this initiative but sadly part of me suspects it is just political opportunitism
as i have said today already you do not have to be against workers in the cheap labour market/ low wage earners or workers in sweat shops to be against cheap labour / sweat shops/ or low wages .
similarly it is NOT the case that to be against immigration being used, that you are against immigrants
i asked MC these questions the other day .. how do you respond to them?
1) do you deny that imm/igration is having a significant effect on wages for a significant % of w/c people?
2) do you deny that systematically the bosses use imm/igration as a tool
3) what do YOU then think is the function of immigration in 2006, especially with reference to the statements from the EU,OECD,CBI,IOD etc etc about how important im/migration is for neo-liberal/freemarket economics
MC5 from his answers denies the importance of immigration materially, like all the SWs on here, and with respect to you and your party ( sorry you are SP? no? apologies if i have forgotten as i think you have told me before) they are the public face of the left in this country
my position is that UNTIL we are honest about immigration and how both that immigration DOES effect w/c people here , AND that immigrnats are used and abused, we can NOT hope to get the ordinary w/c person to support us in supportting immigrants rights ..
dennisr
the acceptable face
durruti02 said:
durruti - you and your one issue.
Yes, SP and yes migrant workers can be used - as can 'local' workers. I would agree with MC5 though that this is only one factor among many and one that is completely overstated. You are one of the classic examples of that overstatement - its almost obsessive mate.
I'd prefer to respond to the fears of folk not on this website, I think it is a bit pointless responding to you personally - you have clearly got a bee in your bonnet on this one issue. I wonder if this is anything to do with some sort of need to beat what you see as a failure of the liberal left (to which I think you would include the SWP).
On your other point about the role of the soft left - I don't think they are the main cause of peoples fears. 'Left' ideas (liberal or otherwise) are, largely, irrelevant when you look at the actual source of many of these fears - a constant media campaign and that of a government that is anything but 'left' alongside the actual economic policies and the actrual insecurity that creates. The government is the ex-party of the working man in the eyes of most - now its the party of neo-liberalism. At least work out what the real target is before shooting at it endlessly. They want fear - your endless round arguements about immigration help to reinforce that.
You are not encouraging 'honest' debate - you seem to be obssessing on a single point, and have done for months, that plays some role in your own rejection of a particular politics you now disagree with. What do you do practicaly apart from posts on this bulletin board? Creating a starw man which you can then knock down (repeatedly....) is not 'honest' let alone 'debate'
What about the other issues working class people face? what about the things that could cut across division between workers? why after all these months are you still obssesed with this one theme - do you really think it is the major one in the majority of peoples day-to-day lives? (I hope you don't say 'culture' and 'history'
)oh - and the other point about the union leaderships being crap - surprise me...
dennisr
the acceptable face
durruti02 said:
to put this another way "unless we go on and on and on about the issue of immigtration to the virtual exclusion of the million and one other issues effecting working class people and pandering to an agenda
It just a bit of luck you only talk about this mate - you would be a real danger if your approach was actually taken up given the failure of the trade unions and the labour party in power.
Similar threads
