Polish Migrants Get Organised.

[audiotech]

MC5 , Dennisr and the others as spokes people for the SWP do you think that we should let everyone who wants to come for work do so?

Do you think that society would be able to cope if we adopted your open door policy?

I have to warn both of you that it might take you a while to get a latte

I prefer tea thanks.

Nobody is seriously arguing for open borders now are they? However, the idea of the free movement of labour still stands as a future goal, for me at least. If you think about it, the idea about the working class liberating itself as a class cannot really be achieved until there is free movement.

 

[tbaldwin]

I prefer tea thanks.

Nobody is seriously arguing for open borders now are they? However, the idea of the free movement of labour still stands as a future goal, for me at least. If you think about it, the idea about the working class liberating itself as a class cannot really be achieved until there is free movement.

Aernt they MC well thats good...What exactly are you arguing for in the here and now then?

I would be all for the free movement of people if it didnt lead to such disastrous consequences due to how divided the world already is economically. But people who support economic migration in the here and now are totally wrong.

 

[audiotech]

Aernt they MC well thats good...What exactly are you arguing for in the here and now then?

For tbaldwin to deported somewhere else and then, no further controls on workers.

 

[tbaldwin]

For tbaldwin to deported somewhere else and then, no further controls on workers.

I am somewhere else....I am all around you .....I'm your Socialist conscience....

 

[ViolentPanda]

I am somewhere else....I am all around you .....I'm your Socialist conscience....

No you're not, you're in your bedroom, wearing just your dirty kecks, and you're about as socialist as a Millwall brick.

 

[urbanrevolt]

What the fuck is it with these boards- haven't looked at them for ages and come back and the top threads are all about immigration! if I wanted to read moral panics about immigration I'd buy the Express or Daily Mail

 

[durruti02]

No you're not, you're in your bedroom, wearing just your dirty kecks, and you're about as socialist as a Millwall brick.

sub concious anti w/c prejudice again .. could have said as socialist as maggie thatcher or tony blair or prince charles who or whatever .. but no a millwall brick ..

p.s. do you remember all the millwall at wapping saturday night after saturday night .. prob not ..

 

[urbanrevolt]

Actaully the original artcile posted by MC5 is pretty good and blows Durutti and tbaldwin's arguments out of the water (tho obviously they don't agree)

Reminds me of comrade from Germany who told me about Portugese workers preparing to scab who- through the intervention of a Mozambiquan comrade who spoke the lingo- when it was explained to them joined the picket line!

Also Durruti and baldwin's 'pro-worker' but actually right wing (if subjectively 'left') argument against migrants reminds me of the sexist arguments used 100 years ago or so against women workers and actually quite a lot more recently. it was women getting organised in the unions and fighting as militantly and more so than the men that finally put paid to that chauvinism.

 

[tbaldwin]

Also Durruti and baldwin's 'pro-worker' but actually right wing (if subjectively 'left') argument against migrants reminds me of the sexist arguments used 100 years ago or so against women workers and actually quite a lot more recently. it was women getting organised in the unions and fighting as militantly and more so than the men that finally put paid to that chauvinism.

Excellent post urbanrevolt really showing some fantastic intellectual abilities with that.....
But the thing is me and durruti dont think we are anti migrant but you know best.....

 

[urbanrevolt]

Thank you. Or were you being sarcastic? In which case thank you anyway because it shows you can't engage with the argument.

I know you think you are in some way pro-migrant but in reality arguing for immigration controls is very anti migrant indeed. It leads to forced detention, deportations and deaths.

As for the intellectual content of the above quote I think your arguments are indeed very similar to those who argued that bosses were using women workers to undercut male wages and conditions (always exaggerated but yes sexism like racism does lead to one group being played off against another)- the solution though is for the more marginalised group of workers to get organised and for the less marginalised but still exploited group of workers to organise along class lines and not ethnic or gender lines

 

[tbaldwin]

I know you think you are in some way pro-migrant but in reality arguing for immigration controls is very anti migrant indeed. It leads to forced detention, deportations and deaths.

Arguing for economic migration is arguing that people should leave poorer countries and head where the money is.....In reality the people most likely to go are those needed most by poorer nations....
BUT IN YOUR SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST WORLD...That doesnt seem to matter...
Its supporting policies that lead to hundreds of thousands of people dying...

 

[urbanrevolt]

We seem to be going round in circles. you brought this up several months ago and I answered you then as I will now.

Capitalism is repsonsible for millions of people dying every year. The only response acceptable is for the working class to get organised across international borders to overthrow capitalism.

Supporting immigration controls which not only divides workers against worker- creating a pool of cheap labour more eaasily exploitable and diverting attention from real enemy- but also prevents avtivists and trade unionists from escaping is supporting capitalism whatever you mya subjectively feel.

 

[tbaldwin]

Supporting immigration controls which not only divides workers against worker- creating a pool of cheap labour more eaasily exploitable and diverting attention from real enemy- but also prevents avtivists and trade unionists from escaping is supporting capitalism whatever you mya subjectively feel.

That is a load of shit and i think you know that really..Supporting survival of the fittest free market policies is utter shite for someone who claims to be a socialist.

 

[ViolentPanda]

sub concious anti w/c prejudice again .. could have said as socialist as maggie thatcher or tony blair or prince charles who or whatever .. but no a millwall brick ..

p.s. do you remember all the millwall at wapping saturday night after saturday night .. prob not ..

Twat.

I'm a West Ham supporter. West Ham supporters of my age have a particular dislike of Millwall, bricks or otherwise.

Kind of makes your "subconscious anti-w/c prejudice" comment look like the bag of know-nothing shit it is, eh?
Why exactly are you always trying to imply that other people can't possibly be as worrking class as you? Got something to hide?

As for Wapping, I was there on my crutches the nights I wasn't working, and the only "Millwall" I remember being there were a group of blokes who were van drivers and van boys on the Evening Standard, so they'd have had a good reason to be there other than their football allegiance, wouldn't they?

 

[ViolentPanda]

That is a load of shit and i think you know that really..Supporting survival of the fittest free market policies is utter shite for someone who claims to be a socialist.

Are you actually reading urbanrevolts' posts, or are you having some kind of seizure?

'Cos you certainly don't appear to be addressing what he's said, but rather what you'd like him to have said.

 

[tbaldwin]

Are you actually reading urbanrevolts' posts, or are you having some kind of seizure?

'Cos you certainly don't appear to be addressing what he's said, but rather what you'd like him to have said.

Thanks for the concern VP...But yes i was reading his posts...Stirring the shit again?

 

[.r.u.i.n.e.d]

that not right MC .. they want unskilled and illiterate by the millions .. as an underclass

I reckon that's the important point.

From a CBI point of view, - from an owners' perspective, full employment is not desirable. The ideal scenario for business is to have a large labour surplus, who are desperate for work, and who will have trouble surviving without it. (Even if we construct a situation, where lots of surplus people fail to survive and die, - so long as their places can be filled by other desperate people arriving from other countries, - it will be good for business. )

In these circumstances, the competition for a limited number of jobs will be so intense that the likelihood of people getting unified to resist exploitation is very low. If on the other hand there's a labour shortage, then at this point suddenly the employee has the whiphand, and can demand the conditions he wants of his employers, threatening to take a different job, if they don't comply.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thanks for the concern VP...But yes i was reading his posts...Stirring the shit again?

I leave that to you. You're the expert.

I asked because you weren't addresing the points he made in his post, you were addressing something about "survival of the fittest", which doesn't really have anything to do with the post you were replying to, but has a lot to do with the way you attempt to slur people.

 

[audiotech]

Are you actually reading urbanrevolts' posts, or are you having some kind of seizure?

I remember giving tbaldwin some sympathy when he posted on here that he had some terminal illness? Not linked to that is it?

 

[audiotech]

I reckon that's the important point.

From a CBI point of view, - from an owners' perspective, full employment is not desirable. The ideal scenario for business is to have a large labour surplus, who are desperate for work, and who will have trouble surviving without it. (Even if we construct a situation, where lots of surplus people fail to survive and die, - so long as their places can be filled by other desperate people arriving from other countries, - it will be good for business. )

In these circumstances, the competition for a limited number of jobs will be so intense that the likelihood of people getting unified to resist exploitation is very low. If on the other hand there's a labour shortage, then at this point suddenly the employee has the whiphand, and can demand the conditions he wants of his employers, threatening to take a different job, if they don't comply.

You glaringly omit to mention skilled workers and also recent events at Gate Gourmet and Goldman Sachs that undermine your idea of a passive workforce ever to be exploited.

 

[durruti02]

Twat.

I'm a West Ham supporter. West Ham supporters of my age have a particular dislike of Millwall, bricks or otherwise.

Kind of makes your "subconscious anti-w/c prejudice" comment look like the bag of know-nothing shit it is, eh?
Why exactly are you always trying to imply that other people can't possibly be as worrking class as you? Got something to hide?

As for Wapping, I was there on my crutches the nights I wasn't working, and the only "Millwall" I remember being there were a group of blokes who were van drivers and van boys on the Evening Standard, so they'd have had a good reason to be there other than their football allegiance, wouldn't they?

fair play ... west ham? .. you in east london?? .. we should meet up ..

but you don't answer why you use 'millwall brick' as a tag of anti socialism .. THAT does not make sense!

why my attitude??? cos most people on urban do seem to be m/c or full of liberal m/c attitudes that infect left wing politics ..

and me??? i'm hiding a lot less than most on Politics .. it is clear where i work and live and what groups i am involved with..

 

[ViolentPanda]

I remember giving tbaldwin some sympathy when he posted on here that he had some terminal illness? Not linked to that is it?

I doubt it, I remember him saying the problem was located in his abdomen, not his head.

 

[ViolentPanda]

fair play ... west ham? .. you in east london?? .. we should meet up ..

Born in Plaistow (prematurely, after a visit to relatives where my mum over-indulged in spicy food, apparently ).
I'm a south Londoner though.

but you don't answer why you use 'millwall brick' as a tag of anti socialism .. THAT does not make sense!

It's not supposed to.
It's an expression of just how non-socialist I see your mate balders as being.
You know, like, a Millwall brick isn't socialist, and neither is balders?
Give me strength but some people are hard work!

why my attitude??? cos most people on urban do seem to be m/c or full of liberal m/c attitudes that infect left wing politics ..

Because your attitude is to alays attempt to imply that, with bugger all to base your assumptions on. I mean, what's your criteria for being "middle-class"? What's your criteria for "liberal m/c attitudes"?
As far as I've ever been able to work out, whenever you or balders start banging on about either of those things it seems to mean "anyone who doesn't agree with me and balders".

and me??? i'm hiding a lot less than most on Politics .. it is clear where i work and live and what groups i am involved with..

Another assumption. How do you know that you're "hiding a lot less than most on Politics"?
The answer is that you don't, but you make the assumption that you do because it fits your preconceptions.

 

[durruti02]

Born in Plaistow (prematurely, after a visit to relatives where my mum over-indulged in spicy food, apparently ).
I'm a south Londoner though.

It's not supposed to.
It's an expression of just how non-socialist I see your mate balders as being.
You know, like, a Millwall brick isn't socialist, and neither is balders?
Give me strength but some people are hard work!

Because your attitude is to alays attempt to imply that, with bugger all to base your assumptions on. I mean, what's your criteria for being "middle-class"? What's your criteria for "liberal m/c attitudes"?
As far as I've ever been able to work out, whenever you or balders start banging on about either of those things it seems to mean "anyone who doesn't agree with me and balders".

Another assumption. How do you know that you're "hiding a lot less than most on Politics"?
The answer is that you don't, but you make the assumption that you do because it fits your preconceptions.

No sorry i still do not get why you use millwall brick for anti socialist .. and not gone for princess anne or whatever! but whatever .. not important

you may be right .. some politics posters do not identify where they are active and with what group or campaign /actvity .. i have not noticed you say how you are active for example

liberal .. means believes more in the rights of the individual than the majority so it is aking to individualism .. hence it is the most use word in right wing economics e.g. in neo-liberalism .. liberalsim is the basis of thatcherism ... also socialists have traditionally been against liberalism because of this ..

it is also associated with politics that not having an analiysis of class society ends up being wishy washy supportting charity over politics that could change things

the lefts response to the immigration debate has NOT been one of what is best for the majority LET ALONE what is the best way to oganise to defeat capitalism BUT obssessing on the rights of ( just) one section of workers, the immigrants

i think it is fair therefore to use the word liberals

so we meeting up in the new year!!? .. with TB?? .. would make an interesting evening!

 

[cockneyrebel]

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=189795