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"Please don't riot, it's just what they want"

Montgolfier said:
Yeah, I mean like most on here I take anything Icke says with a big pinch of salt, but statements like this are right on the money:

We can come together, we MUST come together, putting aside the fault-lines of race, religion, culture and income bracket. These are just illusory labels through which we are divided and therefore ruled. Believe in them if you wish, and enjoy them if they make you happy, but don't let them divide us any longer.
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Yet the poisonous, lunatic shit Icke spreads around does anything but make people come together.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
Not having read the Elders doesn't make me especially ignorant or lazy.
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No, but then ignoring the opinions/evidence of people who have read them makes you (at best) rather stupid.

The fact is their is plenty of evidence that Icke is an anti-semitic scumbag (for instance the book mentioned previously), pretending that he isn't makes you at best ignorant and rather stupid and at worst a fellow traveller.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
Wise words elbows.

For myself, I try and read and watch as much as I can, and find a lot of comfort in admitting that I don't really know what is going on. I am more distrustful of those that act as if they do.

As I said upthread, the idea that there is some singular NWO type group doesn't hold much water because there would probably be other elites who would wish to counter such ambition. The more I try and get my head round the deceit of the elites the more it becomes a hall of mirrors. People who bibble on about everything being a conspiracy, like the riots or the Jewish state or whatever, strike me as being over-fixed in their analysis. No world event can happen now without a conspiranoid analysis emerging within hours. The Norwegian massacre was, the orthodox conspiracists would have it, a result of a manchurian candidate. No need to research facts or anything, his self appointed mason status would have just enhanced the paranoia, but if it was self appointed it doesnt add to a row of beans.

But likewise there are those who scoff and snarl at any alternative view of events, unless perhaps it chimes with their own prejudice (right or wrong) there's usually a lot of swearing thrown in to boot.

Both types assume they know so much about stuff and the other "side" is deluded or asleep.
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Do you think your position regarding this stuff has evolved in any particular direction in say the last couple of years? e.g. perhaps you are less likely to believe the details of certain conspiracy theories now than a few years ago, has the hall of mirrors experience that you describe been a recent thing?

I don't remember the exact details, but Im pretty sure we had some fairly fruitless arguments over this same topic quite a number of times in the past, but it seems like quite some time has passed since the last time, so I wondered if anything has changed. What you have written above does not sound a million miles away from what I remember of your stance in the past, but perhaps there is a slight shift of emphasis, I don't want to presume so I ask.

Also have you ever wondered whether the failure that comes from trying to make sense of elite deceit via purely conspiratorial explanations, just leading to more twists and mist as you have described, is one of the reasons people mock this approach so much in the first place? You won't get to explore the nature of the beast by going down that path, and will be left as frustrated as the millions who tuned in to the last episode of the original series of The Prisoner, expecting the revelation of who Number One was to be something quite different to what they actually got.
 
redsquirrel said:
No, but then ignoring the opinions/evidence of people who have read them makes you (at best) rather stupid.

The fact is their is plenty of evidence that Icke is an anti-semitic scumbag (for instance the book mentioned previously), pretending that he isn't makes you at best ignorant and rather stupid and at worst a fellow traveller.
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I find the clear anti-racist statements of Icke and his general new age stuff to more than counter the allegation that he uses "code words" - the main one seeming to be talking about 'lizards from another dimension' when he actually does mean 'lizards from another dimension' - he can't mean jews too much because he talks about the Queen and George Bush Snr as prime examples.

I have read about the Protocols, cheifly in "voodoo histories" an interesting book which is as interesting for some of it's flaws. I haven't read Mein Kampf but I am pretty down with the idea that Hitler was a rotten egg and familiar with some of his philosophies. (this isn't a retaliation at you RS, just a general point) The idea that not having read book X means you have to accept what people say about it would be pretty dubious. As it happens I accept that The Protocols was a calculated anti semite fraud, so I don't see what the fuss is about.
 
elbows said:
Do you think your position regarding this stuff has evolved in any particular direction in say the last couple of years? e.g. perhaps you are less likely to believe the details of certain conspiracy theories now than a few years ago, has the hall of mirrors experience that you describe been a recent thing?

I don't remember the exact details, but Im pretty sure we had some fairly fruitless arguments over this same topic quite a number of times in the past, but it seems like quite some time has passed since the last time, so I wondered if anything has changed. What you have written above does not sound a million miles away from what I remember of your stance in the past, but perhaps there is a slight shift of emphasis, I don't want to presume so I ask.

Also have you ever wondered whether the failure that comes from trying to make sense of elite deceit via purely conspiratorial explanations, just leading to more twists and mist as you have described, is one of the reasons people mock this approach so much in the first place? You won't get to explore the nature of the beast by going down that path, and will be left as frustrated as the millions who tuned in to the last episode of the original series of The Prisoner, expecting the revelation of who Number One was to be something quite different to what they actually got.
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yes, I have changed in my approach Elbows, partially through debate here and partially through a lot of research in to conspiranoia of various strata. But I was always sketchy about people who expressed certainty regardless of whether their narrative was official or alternative. This hasn't much changed. The fact that their are are twists, smoke and mirrors doesn't make it all bullshit. Not by half. There are at least 4 categories of "conspiracy" stuff I could put things into, but I aint got time to cos time is about to run out at this cafe. People who sit on the fence may end up with splinters in their arse but it is better than the smug certainty of proclomations from apologists for conventional narratives and kneejerk conspiracists, both of whom can be very quick to reach for insult as substitute for debate.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
yes, I have changed in my approach Elbows, partially through debate here and partially through a lot of research in to conspiranoia of various strata. But I was always sketchy about people who expressed certainty regardless of whether their narrative was official or alternative. This hasn't much changed. The fact that their are are twists, smoke and mirrors doesn't make it all bullshit. Not by half. There are at least 4 categories of "conspiracy" stuff I could put things into, but I aint got time to cos time is about to run out at this cafe. People who sit on the fence may end up with splinters in their arse but it is better than the smug certainty of proclomations from apologists for conventional narratives and kneejerk conspiracists, both of whom can be very quick to reach for insult as substitute for debate.
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Just because you don't believe there's a monolithic conspiracy led by jews/zionists/communists/masons/whatever that doesn't mean you follow the "official" narrative. If you're going to label the views of most of the people you're talking to on this thread as following the "official narrative" then your understanding of what that term means is very different from mine.

Take the riots as an example - the official narrative is that it's just criminality, no reasons for it, there are no socio-economic causal factors - it's just bad people doing bad stuff. Then there's two "alternative" narratives - the David Icke conspiranoid one, whereby it's being orchestrated by the jew world order via agents provocoteurs in order to bring about a global police state run by lizards or something, and the sane one, whereby the actions of the elites have played a role, but not necessarily intentionally - cuts to services, brutal policing and an economic system that offers nothing to those who engaged in rioting. To reject the conspiraloon narrative is not to accept the official narrative.
 
SpineyNorman

Just because you don't believe there's a monolithic conspiracy led by jews/zionists/communists/masons/whatever that doesn't mean you follow the "official" narrative.

That is partly what I am saying, sorry if it could have been clearer.

If you're going to label the views of most of the people you're talking to on this thread as following the "official narrative" then your understanding of what that term means is very different from mine.

Depends. Some people are scathing about some government narratives and accept others without much question.

"Take the riots as an example - the official narrative is that it's just criminality, no reasons for it, there are no socio-economic causal factors - it's just bad people doing bad stuff. Then there's two "alternative" narratives - the David Icke conspiranoid one, whereby it's being orchestrated by the jew world order via agents provocoteurs in order to bring about a global police state run by lizards or something, and the sane one, whereby the actions of the elites have played a role, but not necessarily intentionally - cuts to services, brutal policing and an economic system that offers nothing to those who engaged in rioting. To reject the conspiraloon narrative is not to accept the official narrative"

Actually, the latter narrative falls well within the confines of an "official narrative" - it is pretty much what the Labour line is alluding to. Peter Oborne and others on the right are fully on side with the idea that corruption and greed at the top tie in with the notion of the fish rotting from the head down.

When I have heard conspiracists go on about AP with regard to the riots I tended to switch off. Yes there could be AP - there was some weird stuff on March 26th, but on the whole you wouldn't even need these riots to be a set-up, they'd happen sooner or later in some form. However, though the conspiraloons may be dull and predictable the amount of people I have heard blaming the jews is zero.
 
Why are you even bothering to discuss what that fucking dodgy, irrelevant twat Icke is babbling about? He has an extremely tenuous grip on reality at best.
 
Well he has actually predicted much of what has transpired although I hold little truck with him myself. From what I'm told he once was a professional footballer and then a sports tv presenter and suddenly either had a breakdown or a seeing of the light as he has told himself ?
Beyond that I know that my partner has similar ridiculous views .. however he has never been wrong so far !
I wonder if these guys had to work for a living if they might still have the same perecifious attitudes towards those of us that do?
They seem to offer little but have much to say ? Does it not make us weep when we have nothing to offer but platitudes and endorsements of the most heinious government systems they hopefully shall ever know ?
I cannot help but weep but to have been born in this despicable age !!

Buuuutttttt .....

I certainly hope our children are not too frightened to riot in the future and I'm actually very pleased to expect that they will not have to .. they are way ahead of our stupid game .. we ought to be ashamed and I am quite frankly .
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
I have never heard Icke denounce Judaism. In fact he is at pains over and over again to specifically state that zionism and judaism are not at all synonymous. He does go on about "bloodlines", some of the families being Jewish of one derivation or anothe. And Many many are not. I don't know if there has been an attempt at zionist conspiracy or not and I don't know how much truth might have been mixed with the "Elders" lies in saying so. But it strikes me as bugger all to do with the general Jewish peoples or the Jewish faith. That is the distinct vibe I get from what Icke says. I don't know how much more we can dance round in this circle. We've been at it for years.
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If being Jewish isn't relevant then why even mention that some of the families are Jewish? And why bring the protocols and zionism into it?

And yeah, I think everyone knows that zionism and Judaism are as different as night and day, but it entirely dependent on who is talking about "zionism", what they mean by it and why. to some people, usually anti-semites and conspiracy theorists, zionism does mean judaism, and saying "zionism isn't judaism" until you're blue in the face to someone who's questioning their rantings doesn't mean you're somehow defending the jewish people, you're basically acting as a smokescreen for racist rantings and pretending they're not racist.
 
beatrix said:
Well he has actually predicted much of what has transpired although I hold little truck with him myself. From what I'm told he once was a professional footballer and then a sports tv presenter and suddenly either had a breakdown or a seeing of the light as he has told himself ?
Beyond that I know that my partner has similar ridiculous views .. however he has never been wrong so far !
I wonder if these guys had to work for a living if they might still have the same perecifious attitudes towards those of us that do?
They seem to offer little but have much to say ?

I certainly hope our children are not too frightened to riot in the future and I'm actually very pleased to expect that they will not have to .. they are way ahead of our stupid game .. we ought to be ashamed and I am quite frankly .
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Icke has? Ahahahahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaa! Oh, it's good to laugh.
 
Here are two sentences, spot the one that is actually about zionism.

1) Wow, the state of Israel has really suppassed itself this week, building yet another settlement on palestinian land, another example of the murderous excesses of zionism.

2) Be extremely careful if anyone asks you to riot - this type of social unrest is a tactic described in the Protocols that the zionist rothschilds used to oppress the goyim (but of course people who weren't Jewish did too, just in case any lying zionists decide to accuse me of anti-semitism again, which would, of course, be completely unjustified).

Surely its not rocket science surely??
 
Frogwoman

"If being Jewish isn't relevant then why even mention that some of the families are Jewish?"

Icke doesn't.

"And why bring the protocols and zionism into it?"

Again, for my sins I've heard a lot of Ickes stuff, never heard him mention the protocols once.

"And yeah, I think everyone knows that zionism and Judaism are as different as night and day, but it entirely dependent on who is talking about "zionism", what they mean by it and why. to some people, usually anti-semites and conspiracy theorists, zionism does mean judaism, and saying "zionism isn't judaism" until you're blue in the face to someone who's questioning their rantings doesn't mean you're somehow defending the jewish people, you're basically acting as a smokescreen for racist rantings and pretending they're not racist"

There's a parallel in that accusation with the way the EDL blather on about "islam isn't a race duh", but in the consparicists I honestly detect little or nothing by way of anti semitism. Where I detect a slither I am the first to challenge it. I just don't get why they would even have to indulge in something so base and dim, what purpose it would serve and how it would fit their agenda. none of them have an agenda of hating jews that I've detected. I seriously wonder if accusations of anti semitism could be a bit of a red-herring for the anti conspiracists.
 
I personally cannot stand this Jewish conspiracy rubbish .. I rather see it as the end result (hoping) of an undesirous mass adherence to a fiscal system controlled by many jews but without a doubt not a Jewish conspiracy. All ethnicities of our generations are complicit in allowing us to get where we are imo
At local level we have to battle against this and stop the closing down of our youth centres, batlle against free trade private home care for the elderly who have to sell their homes to fund it, battle against the closure of hospitals and the desicration of the NHS.
Take money back from fiscal management and put it back into the care of patients where a patient with severe headache is not scolded for vomiting on the floor but is tested for brain trauma.
This fucking generation of piss taking pricks are on their last legs riots aside !
MY partner firmly believes in karma but he has little respect for it as it transpires tbf
 
beatrix - I agree with all of that except for the fact that I don't think the fiscal system is "controlled" by some jews, and their ethnicity/faith is not part of the picture anyhow.

What is part of the picture is that those in control are kleptocrats who are screwing us all and have the politicians and media in their pockets.

It is also true that the many of the same people who indulge in empty rage against the establishment corruption scandals have very quickly turned to the same establishment as their saviours from the awful prospect of the untermenchen being a bit out of control. These cowering classes are locked in a Stockholm Syndrome.
 
A classic incarnation of the red herring is for someone to say (as I did above) "the ruling elite are ripping us off and have the politicians and media in their pockets"

To which a dull retort is : "ah-ha, that's just what people say about the Jews", implying that one is talking about the jews when one is not.

Basically it's hard to talk about a ruling elite in some circles without being vapidly accused of anti semitism by some kneejerk distractionist.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
Actually, the latter narrative falls well within the confines of an "official narrative" - it is pretty much what the Labour line is alluding to. Peter Oborne and others on the right are fully on side with the idea that corruption and greed at the top tie in with the notion of the fish rotting from the head down.
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So Labour and Oborne are blaming neoliberalism are they? I think not.

taffboy gwyrdd said:
When I have heard conspiracists go on about AP with regard to the riots I tended to switch off. Yes there could be AP - there was some weird stuff on March 26th, but on the whole you wouldn't even need these riots to be a set-up, they'd happen sooner or later in some form. However, though the conspiraloons may be dull and predictable the amount of people I have heard blaming the jews is zero.
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I bet you £50 that I can find a post on a conspiraloon website blaming the Jews - they've been given it on a plate with the orthodox Jews photographed at the scene in Tottenham. You don't want to believe there's any dodginess. But there is, there always is.
 
Thank you taffboy

I'd never heard the expression 'kleptocrat' before .. I guess that's what I ought to have said
It does make sense
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
Frogwoman

"If being Jewish isn't relevant then why even mention that some of the families are Jewish?"

Icke doesn't.

"And why bring the protocols and zionism into it?"

Again, for my sins I've heard a lot of Ickes stuff, never heard him mention the protocols once.

"And yeah, I think everyone knows that zionism and Judaism are as different as night and day, but it entirely dependent on who is talking about "zionism", what they mean by it and why. to some people, usually anti-semites and conspiracy theorists, zionism does mean judaism, and saying "zionism isn't judaism" until you're blue in the face to someone who's questioning their rantings doesn't mean you're somehow defending the jewish people, you're basically acting as a smokescreen for racist rantings and pretending they're not racist"

There's a parallel in that accusation with the way the EDL blather on about "islam isn't a race duh", but in the consparicists I honestly detect little or nothing by way of anti semitism. Where I detect a slither I am the first to challenge it. I just don't get why they would even have to indulge in something so base and dim, what purpose it would serve and how it would fit their agenda. none of them have an agenda of hating jews that I've detected. I seriously wonder if accusations of anti semitism could be a bit of a red-herring for the anti conspiracists.
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Have you looked at david icke's forums or "abovetopsecret.com" or - fuck - anywhere where there's a preponderance of these nutters recently?
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
Icke doesn't.
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Yes he does, he says almost precisely the words frogwoman ascribed to him - almost to the letter.

taffboy gwyrdd said:
Again, for my sins I've heard a lot of Ickes stuff, never heard him mention the protocols once.
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Funny that, cos I've not read any of his stuff but after a 30 second google I can tell you in which book he does reference the protocols. It's the same one where he points out that some of them were Jewish and some weren't - an I'm not racist but style disclaimer if ever there was one.

taffboy gwyrdd said:
There's a parallel in that accusation with the way the EDL blather on about "islam isn't a race duh", but in the consparicists I honestly detect little or nothing by way of anti semitism. Where I detect a slither I am the first to challenge it. I just don't get why they would even have to indulge in something so base and dim, what purpose it would serve and how it would fit their agenda. none of them have an agenda of hating jews that I've detected. I seriously wonder if accusations of anti semitism could be a bit of a red-herring for the anti conspiracists.
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Again, you're not seeing it because you don't want to see it. Antisemites have always been the top conspiracy theorists - people get into conspiracy theory because they're looking for answers, and the antisemites provide answers - simple answers to a complex question. It's very seductive. Your average loon doesn't go out looking for excuses to hate the jews. But once protocol quoting cunts like Icke, who acts as the gateway to more rabid stuff, get into them they find what they believe are reasons to hate the Jews - and once that's happened they're open to the really, really nasty stuff. I've seen it with people who were once my friends, it's like a contageous mental illness. We've all got a good idea how it works with the muppets who follow the EDL and the like - they start off just "concerned" about radical Islam and terrorism, but once they get in the EDL analysis is all they trust - and then they're open to the really extreme stuff. You can see it with the EDL - yet you can't see it with the conspiracists - why? I suspect it's a confirmation bias, it's all it can be.
 
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