8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
Like Icke or the Tsar's secret police who wrote the Elders of Zion would give a shit.
He's a racist loon taffy.
"Please don't riot, it's just what they want"
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Like Icke or the Tsar's secret police who wrote the Elders of Zion would give a shit.
He's a racist loon taffy.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
I don't think he is a racist. Someone who goes on about everything being vibrating energy and us being "infinite consciousness having an experience of being "mr Jones" or whoever" is not going to be too arsed about petty things like race or ethnicity and Icke doesn't strike me as being so.
Also to repeat (although it doesn't by itself get him off the hook) Is George Bush Jewish? Are the royal family Jewish?
In fact, to speak to Butchers point there is probably a bit more overlap between the Chomksy and Icke interpretations of zionism than Butchers is saying.
Having said all of this, the kneejerk conspiranoid analysis that these riots are a set-up to bring in the police state is complete bollocks.
A "middle way" analysis that authoritarians will try and hijack the fear for police state ends might have something to it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Why are you arguing that being loon means that you can't be anti-semitic? if he's not that arsed, then why does he repeatdly over many years foreground anti-semitic tropes and historical anti-semitic theories. That to me suggests that he is rather arsed.
There is no overlap between Icke and chomsky in content. I use the same words as Icke - is there an overlap?
flutterbye
English Breakfast
TruXta
tired
I don't think he sees himself as a racist, but that's neither here nor there. Plenty of Nu Age bods manage to waffle on about energy and vibrations without bringing Zionism into it.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
I am not arguing : "x is loon. Therefore x is not anti semitic"
I am arguing "x is loon. x uses arguments that have little to do with race, ethnicity or faith"
I am arguing "x is loon. x uses arguments that have little to do with race, ethnicity or faith"
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You are arguing the former - twice now.
Whilst missing that his arguments are often anti-semitic - classically so. So the latter case falls as well.
TruXta
tired
I got that, but he's obviously still using loads and loads of racist materials, tropes and ideas. Which for all intents and purposes makes him a racist, loonspuddery notwithstanding.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Again, zionism and judaism are far from synonymous. The most loon zionists are the fundie apocalyptic christians.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It depends totally on who is using it and why. Agreed?
TruXta
tired
That's completely besides the point. Icke might be insane, but he's not stupid. He will know full well what the Protocols means for example.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Butchers - I have heard / read a minority of followers of Icke say clearly anti semitic things, I don't know what their other sources were. I found the statements to be revolting distractions.
I am pretty familiar with the "protocols" stuff and some of the history surrounding it, it was clearly put together with an anti semitic agenda. However, the fact that some people somewhere might have conspired to try and orchestrate world events over a long period is not so far out (be they masons, "illuminatti" or whatever). How much success they have had is far more questionable.
NWO conspiracies are generally too simplistic for my liking. There are lots of elites competing for dominance or self protection along with factions and subversive good guys within those elites.
I am pretty familiar with the "protocols" stuff and some of the history surrounding it, it was clearly put together with an anti semitic agenda. However, the fact that some people somewhere might have conspired to try and orchestrate world events over a long period is not so far out (be they masons, "illuminatti" or whatever). How much success they have had is far more questionable.
NWO conspiracies are generally too simplistic for my liking. There are lots of elites competing for dominance or self protection along with factions and subversive good guys within those elites.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
If anyone says 'however' when discussing the protocols...
Of course people have conspired to make things work for their benefit, they will continue to do so. What the fuck does that have to do with the protocols? How does that help people who use it to defend themselves from being anti-semitic?
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
See bold - that one is the problem - it's not an "illusory label" - it's the source of the problems. He wants us to unite with the CEOs, landed gentry (cunts like Lord Monckton and the like no doubt), etc. against the Jew World Order. "Don't talk about class, it's divisive maaaan." Fuck him.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
I have never heard Icke denounce Judaism. In fact he is at pains over and over again to specifically state that zionism and judaism are not at all synonymous. He does go on about "bloodlines", some of the families being Jewish of one derivation or anothe. And Many many are not. I don't know if there has been an attempt at zionist conspiracy or not and I don't know how much truth might have been mixed with the "Elders" lies in saying so. But it strikes me as bugger all to do with the general Jewish peoples or the Jewish faith. That is the distinct vibe I get from what Icke says. I don't know how much more we can dance round in this circle. We've been at it for years.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
He doesn't have to. No anti-semites have to. GThey just use code words, little whistles and little bells that his followers know and recognise.
Please, don't have an open mind over whether there's been a century old jewish conspiracy. I know that there hasn't been. Why don't you? Please don't suggest that you don't know if there's any truth in the protocols. I know that there isn't. Why don't you?
Stop being dodgy. And stop making excuses for people who are dodgy.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
a) I haven't read the protocols
b) I accept the analysis that they were an anti semite construct of lies
c) I don't think there has been a centuries old jewish conspiracy
d) I know the best lies have some truth thrown in: that the idea of the makings of a conspiracy that gets unjustly pinned on the Jews is not so implausible. That isn't to say that I believe this, I am too ignorant of history and short of time to check it out. But it is not so implausible.
Icke and Co. bibble on about the Masons, Bohemian Grove, the Bildebergers etc. etc. Many of these people can't fart without thinking the CIA must be on it. Their paranoia has bugger all to with the Jewish people or the Jewish faith per se.
b) I accept the analysis that they were an anti semite construct of lies
c) I don't think there has been a centuries old jewish conspiracy
d) I know the best lies have some truth thrown in: that the idea of the makings of a conspiracy that gets unjustly pinned on the Jews is not so implausible. That isn't to say that I believe this, I am too ignorant of history and short of time to check it out. But it is not so implausible.
Icke and Co. bibble on about the Masons, Bohemian Grove, the Bildebergers etc. etc. Many of these people can't fart without thinking the CIA must be on it. Their paranoia has bugger all to with the Jewish people or the Jewish faith per se.
TruXta
tired
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
So you admit you're ignorant, lazy, and don't think it's implausible that there a historical international conspiracy to rule the world. Taffy you do but the moron into oxymoron.
Fuck off and read some history books, before you start pontificating on history.
I know they're 'snake heads' but I think they look like lizards.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Not having read the Elders doesn't make me especially ignorant or lazy. I would be far more trusting of people who freely declared some ignorance around a particular topic than self appointed judges who think themselves qualified to tell others what to do, but can't even do it without swearing.
There are historical conspiracies, don't know about "ruling the world", but they ain't confined to one nation. That would make them "international". The masons are a fairly documented one with their "work of ages" etc. I'm fairly well up on the lies and deceits of the Roman Church in this department as well - wantonly suppressing bona fide Christian spirituality since at the Council of Nicea. There are a lot of pupported conspiracies around zionism, which needn't have a vast amount to do with the rank and file of the Jewish peoples. Does it make them true? not really, but international conspiracies of other stripes exist so it aint so far out an idea.
What people really are looking for here, in this sidetrack of the original thread, is the opportunity to demonise according to orthodoxies. That is truly lazy.
Who does know enough history to be qualified to pontificate upon it? Really? Do you have a special charter of some description to mandate you in making the call?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you're a fucking loon, that's what you are
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
A loon for saying that groups throughout history seek to orchestrate events for their own interests?
Blimey.
Blimey.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Wise words elbows.
For myself, I try and read and watch as much as I can, and find a lot of comfort in admitting that I don't really know what is going on. I am more distrustful of those that act as if they do.
As I said upthread, the idea that there is some singular NWO type group doesn't hold much water because there would probably be other elites who would wish to counter such ambition. The more I try and get my head round the deceit of the elites the more it becomes a hall of mirrors. People who bibble on about everything being a conspiracy, like the riots or the Jewish state or whatever, strike me as being over-fixed in their analysis. No world event can happen now without a conspiranoid analysis emerging within hours. The Norwegian massacre was, the orthodox conspiracists would have it, a result of a manchurian candidate. No need to research facts or anything, his self appointed mason status would have just enhanced the paranoia, but if it was self appointed it doesnt add to a row of beans.
But likewise there are those who scoff and snarl at any alternative view of events, unless perhaps it chimes with their own prejudice (right or wrong) there's usually a lot of swearing thrown in to boot.
Both types assume they know so much about stuff and the other "side" is deluded or asleep.
For myself, I try and read and watch as much as I can, and find a lot of comfort in admitting that I don't really know what is going on. I am more distrustful of those that act as if they do.
As I said upthread, the idea that there is some singular NWO type group doesn't hold much water because there would probably be other elites who would wish to counter such ambition. The more I try and get my head round the deceit of the elites the more it becomes a hall of mirrors. People who bibble on about everything being a conspiracy, like the riots or the Jewish state or whatever, strike me as being over-fixed in their analysis. No world event can happen now without a conspiranoid analysis emerging within hours. The Norwegian massacre was, the orthodox conspiracists would have it, a result of a manchurian candidate. No need to research facts or anything, his self appointed mason status would have just enhanced the paranoia, but if it was self appointed it doesnt add to a row of beans.
But likewise there are those who scoff and snarl at any alternative view of events, unless perhaps it chimes with their own prejudice (right or wrong) there's usually a lot of swearing thrown in to boot.
Both types assume they know so much about stuff and the other "side" is deluded or asleep.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes, you are a fucking loon
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