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The Cathars were right
Why the fuck do you think the IWCA owe you anything?
placing Red Action then the IWCA theorethically
- Thread starter Taxamo Welf
- Start date
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
First of all it was AFA/IWCA who anticipated there would be a vacuum to fill. Secondly, your constant reference to 'obsession' is clearly a case of projection. Finally, to suggest that the contempt for a left that can boast of taking a fraction of a vote for party it previously insisted did not exist outside of the imaginations of Red Action might actually be an affectation takes the biscuit, and illustrates exactly why you and your kind are held in such high regard.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I don't think the IWCA owe me anything.
I think that if they really believe that their ideas and methods have value that they owe anyone who might be willing to listen, anyone they might be able to convince, anyone who wants to do anything to organise in and defend working class communities, an account of what exactly has gone right and gone wrong.
And, for quite seperate reasons, if IWCA supporters are going to spend so much time braying about how everyone else is irrelevant and shit all over various message boards that they should probably not be so wounded and upset when they are asked exactly what's so convincing about their own record. Instead we just get this constant chorus of triumphalist sneering followed by complete outrage if anyone points out that the IWCA's own record isn't exactly one of shining success after shining success.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
See?
More of the same shit. IWCA members have nothing of interest to say about the actual record of the IWCA. It's fucking embarrassing to argue with you at this stage.
Thing is all left groups like to say how different they are, dont they Nigel.
And the only group i know who really looked openly and critically at their record were class war in the excellent issue 73 ( i think) issue of their paper.
I would like to see SP ( Militant) explain how Militant went from mass rallies at the Royal albert Hall in the 80s to where they are now....Admitting some of their mistakes and not just blaming other people.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
There's never been any problem with talking about the decline Militant underwent during the 1990s.
dennisr
the acceptable face
You only have to read what I posted previously on this thread to find some insight into this - you are welcome to ask questions
Looking through your posts on this board it seems this is a recurring problem for you. Argue is what you want to do, I think thats why you weighed into a fraternal discussion. Clearly you are one of the internet controversialists that make people despair of discussions on boards like this. I repeat to you my question how are you relevant then, how have you changed to fill the vaccuum?
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Once more, it's the same shit.
You people really do prefer to talk about the rest of the left rather than the IWCA. I can also safely predict that any attempt to answer your subject-changing question above will immediately lead to more sneering about the "irrelevant" left, claims of arrogance, and all the other things that are safer ground for IWCA member than the actual record of the IWCA.
For what it's worth, here's some of the things the small left organisation I'm a member of has done in the decade and a half since the IWCA was founded. And back in 1995 we weren't much bigger than the IWCA at the start.
It played a leading role in a community campaign of non-payment of a water tax, which succeeded in getting that tax abolished.
It played a leading role in a community campaign of non-payment of a bin tax, which failed in the end, although a campaign involving half the city not paying was built.
It is currently campaigning against "estate management fees", which is a large fee people in new estates in Ireland have to pay for services the Council used to provide.
It uncovered a labour scandal involving hundreds of immigrant building workers being paid less than a third of the minimum wage, which led directly to a successful unofficial strike and the recovery of an average of €40,000 in unpaid wages by the workers involved.
On the electoral front, it had a member of parliament elected twice, currently has 6 councillors and an MEP, most recently getting 12.5% of the vote across Dublin.
To name just the first five things that came into my head. The thing is though, that I'm not claiming that my organisation is the only one which does anything useful and that every one else on the left is irrelevant and shit. That's the IWCA's specialty.
past caring
The Cathars were right
"You people....".
Nearly everything you mention of note happened while the IWCA was on a similar upward trajectory the London Mayoral elections, electing councillors etc. Then these steps forward you mention were reversed, seats were lost you were squeezed in a two horse electoral race etc etc. At least in the process you dropped the trotskyist talk, is that what you learned from looking at the IWCA? The reality is you do nothing in community politics in Ireland, outside of two areas, and in those areas you seem to be more concerned with profiling one or two "names". More importantly paralells with the IWCA would be better made with SPEW, no? Then you would have to take out the Higgins spectacular in Dublin, leaving not much else? No?
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Yes, "you people". Embittered middle aged men, still whining about the "irrelevant" left after all these years, still failing to have an impact yourselves. I'd add "still living off past glories" but really there were never too many to live off, were there?
Jackie08 said:
Three of the five things I mentioned off the top of my head - recent electoral results, the estate management fees campaign, and the GAMA dispute - happened since the IWCA started falling apart. One, the first water tax dispute, happened at the start of the decade and a half of the IWCA's existence and the other, the bin tax dispute, happened halfway through. We didn't have to "learn it from the IWCA" either, given that the water tax campaign started a little before the IWCA existed and was directly modelled on the poll tax campaign in Britain, something a certain organisation not called the IWCA played a prominent role in building.
And no, we don't "do nothing in community politics in Ireland outside one or two areas." We're a small organisation. We weren't much bigger than the IWCA when that organisation started. We're quite a lot bigger than it now, but still small in the greater scheme of things. We don't have a presence in every part of the country, but where we do have a solid presence we are pretty much always involved in community politics. Things like the anti-water tax or anti-bin tax campaigns weren't built in two suburbs, you know. We've taken up issues ranging from a rat infestation in Council flats in Cork, to developer-led planning in West Dublin, to traffic management schemes in South Dublin, to estate management fees in North Dublin, to refuse charges in Drogheda, to hospital closures in Galway etc. Even in the North, where we are numerically weaker, one of the main activities of our members in recent years has been building an anti-water tax campaign in working class communities. On this, as on so much else, in other words, you are talking out of your arse.
And no, we didn't "drop the Trotskyism" in doing the above. Unlike the IWCA, we've never felt the need to drop the ultimate goal of a socialist society while carrying out campaigns for day to day reforms. Neither did we drop our work in the unions and in the workplaces. We saw the value of community politics, but we've never been so monomaniacal as to think that only community politics has any value. Which is just as well really, because as the current economic disaster here shows, no matter how much an organisation prioritises community politics, and how little interest it shows in wider political issues, wider political issues take an interest in you. We'll be campaigning against cut after cut after cut to facilities in the communities over the next few years, but unlike the IWCA we'll also have something to say and do in the unions and we'll have wider political arguments to make about capitalism.
The IWCA has no amazing innovation to teach us, at least as far as I've seen. Which doesn't mean that an accurate summary of its rise and fall wouldn't be of interest, or that the particular issues it took up and the particular methods it used can't be learnt from. But ultimately I don't know what there is to be learnt because nobody involved in the IWCA has anything of interest to say about that organisation. All of you prefer to yap mindlessly about how the rest of the left is "irrelevent" instead. Which, I note you are still doing in this thread rather than addressing your own organisation's successes and failures. And no doubt that's what you'll prefer to continue doing in response to this post.
By the way, there's nothing I've said about the IWCA in this thread that's even a fraction as harsh as the abuse you lot routinely heap on other left organisations. Yet at the slightest hint of criticism you all go completely nuts. You can dish out the criticism endlessly but you are completely incapable of taking any without spontaneously combusting or going off in a sulk.
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The Cathars were right
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
And yet again, nothing to say about the IWCA. That appears to be the central story of that organisation - even its own members have nothing to say about it.
It took you 400 pages to cover 15 years of Red Action having punchups with fascists. As far as I can tell you'll be able to cover 15 years of the IWCA in a leaflet.
It took you 400 pages to cover 15 years of Red Action having punchups with fascists. As far as I can tell you'll be able to cover 15 years of the IWCA in a leaflet.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The sectarian lives in a sphere of ready-made formulae. As a rule, life passes him by without noticing him; but now and then he receives in passing such a fillip as makes him turn 180 degrees around his axis, and often makes him continue on his straight path, but in the opposite direction! Discord with reality engenders in the sectarian the need constantly to render his formulae more precise. This goes under the name of "discussion".
Leon Trotsky
Leon Trotsky
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
And yet again, nothing to say about the IWCA. That appears to be the central story of that organisation - even its own members have nothing to say about it.
It took you 400 pages to cover 15 years of Red Action having punchups with fascists. As far as I can tell you'll be able to cover 15 years of the IWCA in a leaflet.
It took you 400 pages to cover 15 years of Red Action having punchups with fascists. As far as I can tell you'll be able to cover 15 years of the IWCA in a leaflet.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
"The sectarian sees an enemy in everyone who to explain to him that an active participation in the workers’ movement demands a constant study of objective conditions, and not haughty bulldozing from the sectarian rostrum. For analysis of reality the sectarian substitutes intrigue, gossip and hysteria."
Leon Trotsky
Leon Trotsky
It's this winning formula that has made the Weekly Worker the success story that it is.
dennisr
the acceptable face
that and a good sports section - ohh, hold on...
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
And yet again, nothing to say about the IWCA. That appears to be the central story of that organisation - even its own members have nothing to say about it.
It took you 400 pages to cover 15 years of Red Action having punchups with fascists. As far as I can tell you'll be able to cover 15 years of the IWCA in a leaflet.
Are you Les fucking Dennis?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Each time I see Chris Houghton at Newcastle I wonder if he is carrying a copy of Newsline
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Additional comment superfluous.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Still not a word about the IWCA. Strange that.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Many years ago the WRP would have a special wraparound-or have genuine front & back pages-with Celtic on the back anbd IRA news on the front and seel it outside Celtic Park hoping for an audience.....
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
To be fair at least the Provos were still in Europe then.
Again I find your hysteria alarming.
I also hope your comments on the book dont reflect anyone but your own view. If I was your full timer i would bar you from posting on Forums.
If you draw up a balance sheet of the things you list as successes for the SP in Ireland objectively then as I pointed out most happened while the IWCA was also making big strides forward, this you seem to confirm in your last post, no? All that has happened with the SP in the last 5 years is some cashing in on the demise of SF in Dublin, no? You say you had a TD elected twice as if you hadnt lost the seat? I for one was delighted when Higgins won the euro seat as I was disapointed he had lost his dail seat. My point was the SP has had its ups and downs, can you accept that?
Ive lived in Ireland for the last ten years and been involved in numerous campaigns, Im now involved in Eirigi and am on the national cttee of the IPSC. Im involved in International Brigade Commemorations around Ireland and in numerous anti-fascist and anti-racist initiatives. Ive never in those ten years met anyone from the SP. Never not once. Maybe if I lived in West Dublin or Cork the SP "pilot scheme areas" that would be different but I dont. Yes you are small but you are still focused primarily on DC party building, paper selling blah di blah, all your work is for you not for the class.
I think that difference in thinking is why the IWCA as an initiative has been extremely significant, showing what is possible if the left drop the methods of organisation of the traditional leninist party and the arrogance of 4th international we are the party of Trotsky thinking.
Its up to the IWCA to draw up balance sheets as to the way forward and to assess its next steps, I doubt that will be done on this forum. I wish them well in this as I think they have shown great potential. I doubt however anyone will be arguing for a return to your politics though no matter how difficult things are?
Clearly someone from the IWCA has upset you at some stage, if they say sorry will you go away?
I also hope your comments on the book dont reflect anyone but your own view. If I was your full timer i would bar you from posting on Forums.
If you draw up a balance sheet of the things you list as successes for the SP in Ireland objectively then as I pointed out most happened while the IWCA was also making big strides forward, this you seem to confirm in your last post, no? All that has happened with the SP in the last 5 years is some cashing in on the demise of SF in Dublin, no? You say you had a TD elected twice as if you hadnt lost the seat? I for one was delighted when Higgins won the euro seat as I was disapointed he had lost his dail seat. My point was the SP has had its ups and downs, can you accept that?
Ive lived in Ireland for the last ten years and been involved in numerous campaigns, Im now involved in Eirigi and am on the national cttee of the IPSC. Im involved in International Brigade Commemorations around Ireland and in numerous anti-fascist and anti-racist initiatives. Ive never in those ten years met anyone from the SP. Never not once. Maybe if I lived in West Dublin or Cork the SP "pilot scheme areas" that would be different but I dont. Yes you are small but you are still focused primarily on DC party building, paper selling blah di blah, all your work is for you not for the class.
I think that difference in thinking is why the IWCA as an initiative has been extremely significant, showing what is possible if the left drop the methods of organisation of the traditional leninist party and the arrogance of 4th international we are the party of Trotsky thinking.
Its up to the IWCA to draw up balance sheets as to the way forward and to assess its next steps, I doubt that will be done on this forum. I wish them well in this as I think they have shown great potential. I doubt however anyone will be arguing for a return to your politics though no matter how difficult things are?
Clearly someone from the IWCA has upset you at some stage, if they say sorry will you go away?
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
No hysteria at all. Just amusement at the usual flailing about from IWCA supporters on here, who like to spend their time talking crap about other left groups but have nothing much to say about their own.
jackie 68 said:
I didn't say anything much about the Red Action book. If you really want an assessment of it here's one for you: Some moderately interesting historical detail and a few interesting but not very worked out political arguments, surrounded by far too much tedious hooligan-lit machismo. (Now watch as the usual crowd of embittered middle aged men have a collective prolapse from sheer rage.)
jackie08 said:
Is that something that happens in Eirigi? Are you nuts?
jackie08 said:
No. Of the five things I listed, three occurred since the IWCA started falling apart. Two is not most of five.
jackie08 said:
No.
jackie08 said:
Of course.
jackie08 said:
Are you serious? You talk about whether or not we're involved in community campaigns in Ireland and then your evidence against is that you haven't seen us around the Irish Palestine Solidarity Campaign, International Brigade Commemorations or anti-fascism (which in Ireland consists of rocking up to a pub and confiscating pints off about four social inadequates before putting their pictures on Indymedia)? That's what you think community campaigning consists of?
Do you even realise that you are talking about exactly the sort of stuff IWCA supporters routinely dismiss as "irrelevent left" nonsense? And directly oppose to their allegedly innovative concentration on community activism around issues of immediate local concern to working class communities? If some SWPer tried to claim that they were involved in community campaigns like International Brigades commemorations or Palestine Solidarity they'd still be sniggering about it for years afterwards. If some anarchist started talking about physical force anti-fascism they'd be sneering at them as a reenactor who doesn't understand that times have changed.
jackie08 said:
I can exclusively reveal to you that no matter where you are based, things like International Brigades commemorations or the IPSC are not massive priorities for us. As it happens, one of the main people involved in International Brigades stuff is actually an SP member in Belfast (he runs a big website on the subject), but it's a hobby not a party activity.
On the other hand if you live just about anywhere where we have have a local branch, you will sooner or later get them knocking on your door about some actual local community issue.
jackie08 said:
All that they've really shown is that it's possible to get a couple of councillors elected through intensive community work and then slowly disappear. And we already knew the first part.
jackie08 said:
I doubt it will be done anywhere, at least on current form.
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The Cathars were right
I think he is aware that they've recruited someone who posts on here who has shown some sympathy for the IWCA. Can't think of anything else - all the debates about whatthe IWCA was about and why necessary, he was posting here but well absent......this is more about who he thinks he is addressing rather than any wish for any real discussion. Which is why I'll continue to treat him like the sad sack he is.
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