butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You don't *need* to show anything. I was merely highlighting that you weren't showing good faith, and that you're continuing a long running game. Not interested.
placing Red Action then the IWCA theorethically
- Thread starter Taxamo Welf
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You don't *need* to show anything. I was merely highlighting that you weren't showing good faith, and that you're continuing a long running game. Not interested.
newbie
undisambiguated
bizzarre. You are defending secrecy and you're backing off from a straightforward question.
It's the fact that it's all so secret that puzzles me, not the actual membership of the NEC or the agenda for the AGM.
Why are people supposed to trust a party that doesn't trust them?
It's the fact that it's all so secret that puzzles me, not the actual membership of the NEC or the agenda for the AGM.
Why are people supposed to trust a party that doesn't trust them?
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
This grabbed my attention. I was around and about the Sunday after the BNP got slapped at Brick Lane. The week after there was 50+ of us who'd met originally a wee bit away from Brick Lane and proceeded to wander through the streets to try and have a look. We were waiting in a wee 'sqauare' just of Vallance Road when a few coppers came into the square and were a bit shocked to see the black lads with us. We were hoping to wander back through the back streets towards Mile End as we'd been informed that there was a growing number of fash down there but had waited for a few plod cars to clear. Turns out after a mate on the 'official picket' at the top of Brick lane, that he overheard plod referring to a large group of fascists being behind a wall off the Vallance Road, and when we got clocked the police thought at first we were the fascicsts. Luckily for the fash there was 20 or so of them across the road who later got pulled.
There was a fair few AFA/ex-AFA with us that day.
audiotech
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newbie
undisambiguated
Curious, isn't it, the knots people tie themselves into in order to be partisan to their chosen political grouping. It's like, my lot can do no wrong and the others can do no right.
Not that there are any twists and turns here. In fact there's no attempt to explain the secrecy at all, just an embarrassed dig at me for asking the question.
Not that there are any twists and turns here. In fact there's no attempt to explain the secrecy at all, just an embarrassed dig at me for asking the question.
audiotech
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Lying by omission. Oh the fucking irony.
love detective
there's no love too small
you're doing a bit of goalpost moving here are you not
you originally asked specifically:-
What does it hide names of the officers, why aren't the debates at the AGM published? Why shouldn't non members know who is involved and what is discussed?
but now when you've found out that the names of it's elected officers and information about what is discussed at their AGM are publicly available and are not, as you previously claimed, hidden - you seemed to have now switched to a position that what you previously said should be available is now not enough and demand more, at what point would you be satisfied? a full membership list with names & addresses? a live webcam setup in members homes?
In addition to those named in the accounts, those who are active are not exactly hiding their involvement, why would they do radio programmes, appear in the local papers, write blogs under their own names etc, sit as councilors, stand in elections, if they were hiding their identity or involvement? beyond that the fact that the iwca is a small organisation means that there isn't that much more to be disclosed other than what is already available on the local & national websites, a couple of active branches the people who are involved in them are not exactly hidden and given they are the bedrock of the organisation's activity, anything beyond this would mean having to make up stuff to keep you happy
also don't understand your point about 'carefully constructed statements' would you prefer that they weren't and are you implying that any other political organisation does not carefully construct anything that they put out as publicity material?
newbie
undisambiguated
Thanks for taking the question seriously.
I do understand your point that it's small and I'm not asking for anything particularly exhaustive, but when I see that neither of the two names shown on the EC website actually appear on the IWCA website at all (according to Google), I'm afraid I think it's weird and wonder if something is being hidden.
As an interested outsider trying to grasp what the IWCA actually means, the single paragraph about structure appears to be intended to obscure more than enlighten. eg it's all very well stating that policy is made by an inverted pyramid of recallable delegates, but without an outline of the branch/region structure that might be three or four people.
No not at all, but surely you can appreciate that simply being told that a party believes x without knowing whether x was passed unanimously or vigorously debated makes a real difference to how a party is understood. With the IWCA it's not even possible to tell if x was discussed at AGM.
Is there any reason why AGM minutes shouldn't be public?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
...and now you're in his game.
There's no need to be responsible to anyone but the members - not 'newbie off the internet'. He's been told where and how to find info that's bothering him so.
There's no need to be responsible to anyone but the members - not 'newbie off the internet'. He's been told where and how to find info that's bothering him so.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
The last part of post is pointing up that the way the IWCA presents itself is not some unusual/sinister effect of it's imagined leninist history, but a not uncommon characteristic of small resource strapped parties like the CAP. Stangely it seems to us a sensible use of limited resources to act on the ground and subsequently report the conduct and results of that action. Reading accounts of the IWCA's daily practice seems to me to be a more insightful route into understanding 'what the IWCA means', rather than sifting through the names of officers and what would be neccessarily abbreviated accounts of yearly discussion at the AGM.
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
newbie
undisambiguated
really? I'd far rather read a debate than a press release, they're generally much more informative. TBH my interest in this was not in studying the detail, it was caused because I noticed there how little is available and wondered why.
The 'too small' explanation does actually make sense, as I said above, although surely AGM minutes are circulated to all members- so why not make them public?
I'm sorry if you or your comrades found my question offensive, but without any explanation it's not like there are no other possibilities. One of which is that the (undeniable, surely) revolutionary tradition from which RA and then IWCA sprang has not been as thoroughly cast-off as has been claimed. Neither of them interest me very much, but I've had a brief look at the websites of the openly revolutionary SWP & SP: neither appear to show details of who sits on their NEC (or whatever it''s called), neither have information about AGM debates, both come across as monoliths where all members have a single view. You're obviously sensitive to the accusation yet you present a similar face to the world.
dennisr
the acceptable face
I can't speak for the SWP but, in the SP, all debates are had in full; leadership is elected and accountable; internal publications mean that a disagreemant aired by a small group of individuals is raised with every member - so every member becomes aware of such disagreements. Sometimes that will mean a single individual raising an issue with the entire international organisation. That is not a monolith - it is about genuine accountability.
We don't send copies to 'newbie on the net' though - cos a) 'newbie on the net' does not agree with he basic membership criteria and is not therefore accountable to that organisation (or anybody else - thats your choice) b) we don't have the resources. Having said that key debates and differences can be found on and downloaded from the web (not on the main SP site - unless being forced to use google is a further example of presumed 'monolithic' behaviour, I would argue this is for prefectly reasonable reasons). Key debates can also be found in our publications - take for example the latest issue of Socialism Today with the debate on the changing nature of the Chinese state at present. The SP see genuine discussion is a very useful way to educate ourselves.
As others have already pointed out though - you have no interest in the reality because your interest is purely rhetorical and based on presumptions and unsubstanciated slurs. And that is not open 'discussion' its simply talking out of your arse, as an anonymous individual with no accountability for truth or evidence whatsoever.
newbie
undisambiguated
thanks for your explanation, I figured I'd get flamed 
My apologies if your debates are available on a different site: I didn't find it and don't know where it is. But I agree, a commitment to open debate is an important component of politics, that's why I asked my original question.
My apologies if your debates are available on a different site: I didn't find it and don't know where it is. But I agree, a commitment to open debate is an important component of politics, that's why I asked my original question.
dennisr
the acceptable face
thanks for your explanation, I figured I'd get flamed
My apologies if your debates are available on a different site: I didn't find it and don't know where it is. But I agree, a commitment to open debate is an important component of politics, that's why I asked my original question.
aye, your a big wopper.
as with your comments about the IWCA you clearly wanted to 'provoke' - a lot of people see that as a replacement for honest discussion. Long as you don't mind folk taking you up on it in the same manner you present your own case, which is all other folk have done here.
I agree - open debate - not just important but essential for folk who are able to think for themselves (and be self-critical as a result) - which would be the key element of ensuring any collective leadership remains accountable. After all one could have the most 'democratic' constitution (or organisational anti-constitution I suppose...) on the planet - but it no good if the membership are simply sheep, not thinking for themselves and following the party (or non-party for that matter...) line
newbie
undisambiguated
of course I don't mind, why would I? sfaics I set out what I wanted to know and why, if that's seen as provocative then so be it, I can cope with the man not ball responses.
Your last paragraph I agree with and see as being integral to making political headway, and I doubt I'm alone in that. The position statements parties make are rather less important than how they decide their positions, because policy detail necessarily changes with circumstances. It's possible to disagree with a policy without disrespecting those who fought long and hard to argue their case openly and honestly; less easy to accept the bewildered look of supporters suddenly told their leadership expects them to change their views. The bland paragraphs available from the IWCA, and the defensive and largely apolitical responses to being questioned about decision making, don't stand up particularly well.
Your last paragraph I agree with and see as being integral to making political headway, and I doubt I'm alone in that. The position statements parties make are rather less important than how they decide their positions, because policy detail necessarily changes with circumstances. It's possible to disagree with a policy without disrespecting those who fought long and hard to argue their case openly and honestly; less easy to accept the bewildered look of supporters suddenly told their leadership expects them to change their views. The bland paragraphs available from the IWCA, and the defensive and largely apolitical responses to being questioned about decision making, don't stand up particularly well.
i don't understand why you think you should be party to the internal debates of any organisation you're not a member of.
when I was a member the IWCA held regular meetings, debated the Q's, came to a position, and issued statements in their election material, on their websites, in their local newsletters, etc. Those who were their constituents in elections know what they stand for, and are ableto Q them at public meetings, etc.
IWCA members and sympathisers have more than eloquent and free with debate on these boards over the years. why the obsession with internal machinations?
FWIW, as much as I have problems with the IWCA as it stands (and I reserve the right not to share my experiences with some anonymous person over the internet), it certianly is not a Leninist outfit in its internal structures; and its undertsanding of DC is leaps ahead of the trot grouplets.
Guess you'll just have to take my word for it though, won't you Newbie ...
when I was a member the IWCA held regular meetings, debated the Q's, came to a position, and issued statements in their election material, on their websites, in their local newsletters, etc. Those who were their constituents in elections know what they stand for, and are ableto Q them at public meetings, etc.
IWCA members and sympathisers have more than eloquent and free with debate on these boards over the years. why the obsession with internal machinations?
FWIW, as much as I have problems with the IWCA as it stands (and I reserve the right not to share my experiences with some anonymous person over the internet), it certianly is not a Leninist outfit in its internal structures; and its undertsanding of DC is leaps ahead of the trot grouplets.
Guess you'll just have to take my word for it though, won't you Newbie ...
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Taking the bits in bold one by one:
1. Q. What do you think should be done about the drug dealing in the flats down the road?
A. Here's a leaflet explain the decision making structures, lines of accountability and processes of debate in the IWCA.
2. When has this happened with the IWCA?
3. This in not an accurate description of the numerous newsletters, Stuart's councillors diaries, letters to the press, interviews and internet exchanges that the IWCA has engaged in over a number of years.
Louis MacNeice
newbie
undisambiguated
I'm not asking you to share your experience if you don't want to, nor have I asked to be party to internal debates: I've asked why those debates are not available for public understanding.
Thb I don't think 'obsessed' is reasonable. I asked a question a while back and apart from a bit of ritual abuse didn't get an answer. So I asked it again on this thread, and after a bit more ritual a discussion has ensued and it's now been answered. The contributions from dennis or yourself or Louis move the discussion on in a worthwhile direction: focussing on me or my right to ask the question is just dull.
FWIW, as much as I have problems with the IWCA as it stands (and I reserve the right not to share my experiences with some anonymous person over the internet), it certianly is not a Leninist outfit in its internal structures; and its undertsanding of DC is leaps ahead of the trot grouplets.
Guess you'll just have to take my word for it though, won't you Newbie ...
Whilst I'm happy to take your, equally anonymous, word for your experiences in regard to my question I'm not sure I see much difference, from the outside, between a trot grouplet with unnamed political leadership and unpublished internal debates and the IWCA. Had I been able to do so I wouldn't have asked the question. If the differences are as great as are claimed then surely it makes sense for that to be apparent to outsiders as well as insiders?
newbie
undisambiguated
Louis, thankyou but that's not quite what's happened is it.
1. Q. What do you think should be done about the drug dealing in the flats down the road?
A. Here's a leaflet explaining our position
Q. thankyou, that's interesting. how did you get to that position?
A Here's a website saying power resides at the bottom with the rank and file
Q. yes, but what does that mean?
A we won't tell you unless you join.
maybe not, but it's a pretty accurate description of what's happened since asked the question. The paragraph below is bland, but is all there is; the initial responses on this thread were defensive.
How is the IWCA structured?
Like a lot of parties the structure of the IWCA resembles a pyramid except, unlike all other parties, power resides at the bottom with the rank and file.
This is achieved by electing recallable delegates at the local level to make decisions regionally and nationally. Furthermore, officers elected at the annual general meeting, to deal with matters affecting the IWCA nationally, remain subordinate to these delegates in regard to the implementation of IWCA policy in between AGMs. Decisions at the AGM are made according to the principle of one-person one vote.
1. Q. What do you think should be done about the drug dealing in the flats down the road?
A. Here's a leaflet explaining our position
Q. thankyou, that's interesting. how did you get to that position?
A Here's a website saying power resides at the bottom with the rank and file
Q. yes, but what does that mean?
A we won't tell you unless you join.
I don't think I gave the impression it had.
maybe not, but it's a pretty accurate description of what's happened since asked the question. The paragraph below is bland, but is all there is; the initial responses on this thread were defensive.
How is the IWCA structured?
Like a lot of parties the structure of the IWCA resembles a pyramid except, unlike all other parties, power resides at the bottom with the rank and file.
This is achieved by electing recallable delegates at the local level to make decisions regionally and nationally. Furthermore, officers elected at the annual general meeting, to deal with matters affecting the IWCA nationally, remain subordinate to these delegates in regard to the implementation of IWCA policy in between AGMs. Decisions at the AGM are made according to the principle of one-person one vote.
chico enrico
No hair shows you care.
the great paradox and failing of RA and IWCA is that the literature they have always produced is well boring. You'd think with the pedigree and experience certain long-standing members have they'd have an idea how to produce something snappy and populist which would have struck a chord with , say the residents of the estate i used to stay on goswell road which they canvassed quite heavily. but even i, as someone who's not exactly a stranger to politics didn't bother to plough all the way through the IWCA newssheet thing they used to put through the door.
plus you'd think for all their understanding of the dynamics of the far right in britain they'd have sussed onto why their propaganda has a resonance with the demographic they are targetting (arguably the same as IWCA)
plus you'd think for all their understanding of the dynamics of the far right in britain they'd have sussed onto why their propaganda has a resonance with the demographic they are targetting (arguably the same as IWCA)
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
There's your problem; I have never had that conversation nor have I heard that conversation reported.
Louis MacNeice
newbie
undisambiguated
That is our conversation though. You and I have been discussing bits of IWCA policy for the last 5 years or so, off and on. This thread asks "how did you get to that position?".
I don't suppose exactly that conversation will ever occur on the doorstep, but this is U75 P&P and all sorts of arcane stuff gets discussed here that won't ever see the light of day in doorstep canvassing.
I don't suppose exactly that conversation will ever occur on the doorstep, but this is U75 P&P and all sorts of arcane stuff gets discussed here that won't ever see the light of day in doorstep canvassing.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
And the point I'm making is that with limited resources the IWCA concentrates on the doorstep stuff; or are you suggesting that without it being discussed by the Association (remember people might think they have more pressing concenrs than satisfying newbie) I should go into detailed accounts of the internal life of the IWCA?
Louis MacNeice
newbie
undisambiguated
Again, no of course not. If this thread is distracting you (or anyone else) from worthwhile political endeavour then step away, it's hardly a big deal.
As said above, I understand your point about limited resources and have no wish to divert them.
But while we're here (aren't we mostly doing displacement activity instead of working or maybe watching telly?) I'd value your opinion on whether there's any reason in principle why AGM minutes shouldn't be available to the public as they are, presumably, to the membership. There may need to be edited sections to deal with, I dunno, finance or diciplinaries or something but in general is there any reason why the discussions and votes about policies shouldn't be public? Other parties do it invite the press in to watch, couldn't you? Same question for the names of the people who sit on the NEC or whatever it's called. To reiterate, I'm simply asking for opinions, not seeking any details or any change in policy or practice.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
You are one of the most tiresome posters I have ever come across on here
audiotech
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Yaaaaaaaaawn.
audiotech
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The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I expect this thread is dead and finished now, Ive just found it googleing red action but if you want to pidgeon hole ra in left historical terms I think most anarchists would see them as council communists in the emily pankhurst tradition politically and I think the open polemic debates if you can find them online where RA demolish leninism kind of put them in that category too. However I think to try to ideological coral RA is futile and I think ideologically there is much to be found like RA in horizontalism, the basque left independence movement, the italian left (those that locate themselves in the Red partisan tradition while focusing on anti-imperialism and anti-fascism) etc etc. Bring back Red Action!!
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