Petition in favour of Brighton Terrace Drug Treatment centre

[Bob]

Bob. This is almost exactly the standard line that has been heard from the project sponsors at the public meetings. Its possible that you are not an independent commentator on this? If so, I think people on this forum should know exactly what your connection, and subsequently what your interests are. Do you have an affiliation to SLaM or one of the other bodies?

Lets just be honest about it and say that stockwell project is actually very different to the one poposed on Brigthon Terrace

It must be said that one of the reasons why the Stockwell project has been able to operate with apparent success is because of its scale. Its really small.
Another, is that its located on a busy main road (the A3) not tucked away on a residential side street, litterally, with the entrance to a childrens playground less than a 10 second walk away.
The proposed centre on B.T. is much much MUCH bigger and is that close to actively used childrens play facilities.

One could argue that a strategy of several smaller centres dotted around the area is currently and demostrably a successful one, based on evidence to date. If this is working, why do SLaM feel it necessary to deviate from this proven strategy in favour of a much larger centralised project that is unprecidented and largely experimental. It doesn’t demonstrate strategic thinking. Surely the intelligent thing to do is 'go with what you KNOW'

Simple answer - no I don't have any affiliation to the council, SLAM, or police - I've just read the various briefings - for anyone else who wants to the links are on the mybrixton website.

As many people on Urban know, and I've posted in one way or another a reasonable number of times, I know and support a number of the Lib Dem councillors in Lambeth. But that's nothing to do with my support for this project - indeed most of the people involved in the petition etc. are explicitly not Lib Dems.

Am I right in summarising your objections as the following?:
1. The needle exchange
2. The size relative to the Stockwell project
3. The location not being on a main road?

 

[Blagsta]

JayDee - can you point to another needle exchange service in the area that has led to the problems you are worried about?

 

[JayDee2005]

JayDee - can you point to another needle exchange service in the area that has led to the problems you are worried about?

Conversely, can you point to one that hasnt?

I dont have first hand evidence of every needle exchange in London! I know people who live nearby the Camden one so i have first hand experience of this.

I also made specific reference to louloubelles quote that echoes more or less my experience.

"I used to work at a project affiliated with a DDU and needle exhange, both of which had premises within a 2 minute walk of my office in a hospital.

Everyone in the hospital was extremely careful about leaving stuff in their car as there were lots of break ins. Perhaps it's the same everywhere, but to us it felt like an area where many of the addicts couldn't resist stealing stuff if it was there, so people were extra vigilant.

Certainly many of the addicts were on methadone, but they didn't want methadone, they wanted heroin and there was a lot of dealing going on just outside the DDU and the needle exchange (much more so at the needle exchange)."

I dont think it matters if the centre is in the area or not. My point is that its irresponsible of those behind this proposal to simply dismiss the idea that there will be problems - out of hand.

From what the local residents are telling me, and from what I've seem myself of the public meetings this seems to be what they've tried to do.

Instead, there should be a proper Independent Environmental Impact Assesment study on this to get more information, and real contingengcies for what happens if things go wrong. This would be the responsible thing to do for EVERYONE involved, but those behind the application have not done so.

If other council can do this, why cant ours??
Its a novell concept called being socially responsible.

 

[JayDee2005]

Am I right in summarising your objections as the following?:
1. The needle exchange
2. The size relative to the Stockwell project
3. The location not being on a main road?

I'm merely stating that there are enough differences between the current Stockwell Project and the proposed one on Brighton Terrace as to make it innaproprate to compare them 'like for like' in these discussions. A device thats often used in these discussions. Its misleading. The fact that it's not close to a widespread and open drug dealership similar to the one of Brixton Town, is yet another distinction.

My real issue is one of how those behind the planning application have really messed up, by doing what is essentially 'the minumum' required of them, rather than whats actually required of them to address concerns local residents would obviously have.

rubbishing them and labelling them as NIMBY's doesnt really do that. Its just insulting.

I do think residents in the IMMEDIATE vicinity have lots of genuine concerns fears worries etc about what happens if you put such a massive centre with a needle exchange in a quiet little area like Brighton Terrace, and based on what i've seen at the public meetings, the responses to these concerns have been less than satisfactory, SLaM (et al.) havent really demonstrated a willingness to really engage with them and take them seriously.

At the CPCG meeting there was even a denial by someone speaking on behalf of SLaM that Brighton Terrace is even a residential street! This elicited quite an angry response if I recall, but I'm hardly surprised. I wonder how any of us would react if we were told we have no real right to object, because we don’t really have a right to exist!

 

[clive diedrick]

Stockwell project

The stockwell project is by far the most used service in london.It has a very good needle ex,and even better staff.A lot of great work is being done there and for no thanks,the move to Brighton Terrace would be good for all of us,you me and the dog next door, so what are we going to do,wake up people and get down to the project and sign up.People Power.

The Co-chair Stockwell Project user Group.

 

[JayDee2005]

The stockwell project is by far the most used service in london.It has a very good needle ex,and even better staff.The manager is a bit of a tit but you cant have the lot.A lot of great work is being done there and for no thanks,the move to Brighton Terrace would be good for all of us,you me and the dog next door, so what are we going to do,wake up people and get down to the project and sign up.People Power.

The Co-chair Stockwell Project user Group.

I dont doubt it. Really clive. I don't - though i was under the impression there was currently NO needle exchange operating at the stockwell project.

While i dont doubt peoples good intentions, I do seriously doubt SLaM, Lambeth and the PCT's approach to this particular planning application. They just havent handled themselves properly. There have been many failures on their behalf.

I think that the residents of Brighton Terrace did deserved to be consulted BEFORE the planning application went in in February rather than a month later in March. This sort of behaviour doesnt look good, and does appear extremely arrogant. If they'd done only this, then it would have gone some way to allay their fears that there concerns arent being listened to. Talk about SLaM shooting themselves in the foot!!

I think they also deserve some independent assesments, environmental studies etc... to evaluate potential impact on the area, seeing as how they are being asked to live alongside this Centre for a VERY long time to come.

They cant just take SLaM's word for it, or the words of others in support of it. Those of you who dont really understand their conerns- consider if its wise to accept such a large centre purely on trust of the words from 'interested' parties alone; and without lots of independent information to back it up?

Especially when the orgs who promote themselves as trustworthy have demonstrated a propensity for ignorance.

It doesnt really matter how much support there is. Support alone isnt really the issue.

 

[Blagsta]

Conversely, can you point to one that hasnt?
.

Eh? You're claiming that a needle exchange on Brighton Terrace will cause problems. I'm asking you to look at comparable schemes in the area and how they handle any problems (if any).

 

[JayDee2005]

Eh? You're claiming that a needle exchange on Brighton Terrace will cause problems. I'm asking you to look at comparable schemes in the area and how they handle any problems (if any).

You want ME to look at it. I'm hardly in best position to do that

This is precisely the reason why an independent assesment should be, and should have been already carried out. To gather INDEPENDENT evidence and answer questions like this in the correct context

You've made my point for me. Thankyou.

 

[netbob]

Doesnt this all come back to the same thing though? Everyone agrees the centre is needed. It will have to go somewhere, but where ever it does end up people a re going to find reasons to object. All of Brixton is residential or near a school etc etc. The longer the wrangling goes on, the more Brixton suffers the consiquences of untreated drug use and users go untreated.

 

[Blagsta]

You want ME to look at it. I'm hardly in best position to do that

Well you're the one asserting that it will cause problems. I'm just wondering on what you base that opinion.

This is precisely the reason why an independent assesment should be, and should have been already carried out. To gather INDEPENDENT evidence and answer questions like this in the correct context

You've made my point for me. Thankyou.

Who would carry the assessment out?

 

[JayDee2005]

Doesnt this all come back to the same thing though? Everyone agrees the centre is needed. It will have to go somewhere, but where ever it does end up people a re going to find reasons to object. All of Brixton is residential or near a school etc etc. The longer the wrangling goes on, the more Brixton suffers the consiquences of untreated drug use and users go untreated.

No it doesnt - And there goes another distillation what are very serious issues.

It must be acknowledged that any failure or delay is the fault of those who cocked up the planning process in the first place. BT residents shouldnt be marginalised or bear the brunt of the risks associated with this.

Especially when, even at this late stage and with all thats been said in 'this meeting' and 'that meeting' I'm being told that the residents concerns are still not being addressed directly by SLaM

I think its dangerous to take this stance as you have. The fact that you describe it as 'wrangling' demonstrates that you too can trivialise the concerns of those immediately surrounding the centre. They do exist, they are real, there are lots of them and they do need to be addressed.

really consider how you're not really thinking about this from the residents point of view. Some of them there really do want to believe this will work. The picture thats painted of them on this forum is really really innacurate. It borders on the personally insulting. Anyone can do that, in any argument. Hardly intelligent!

All they expect is that those who are charged with sponsoring this kind of scheme would act properly under the circumstances. They havent.

These are your neighbours - they HAVE legitimate gripes. They arent just being obstructive for of the sake of it.

its really sad that this is going on. It divides the community. Its a shame and it could all have been avoided.

 

[JayDee2005]

Who would carry the assessment out?

Dont you think these questions should have been asked before anyone went NEAR the planning application process???

Fact is - in other instances of centres like this, in other boroughs - studies like this ARE carried out before they're applied for. Its in everyones interests to do so.

 

[IntoStella]

And there goes another distillation what are very serious issues.

Nothing wrong with applying Ockham's Razor. Especially where Lambeth are concerned. They can lay down a smokescreen like the Battleship Potemkin.

I must say, I find it refreshing the way memespring and nipsla have been actually doing something in the neighbourhood, rather than sitting around going "it's all so complicated".

 

[Blagsta]

Dont you think these questions should have been asked before anyone went NEAR the planning application process???

Fact is - in other instances of centres like this, in other boroughs - studies like this ARE carried out before they're applied for. Its in everyones interests to do so.

I'm asking you who you think should carry the assesment out. Who does it in other boroughs?

 

[JayDee2005]

Nothing wrong with applying Ockham's Razor. Especially where Lambeth are concerned.

That depends entirely if you're the one being cut by it.

 

[Blagsta]

What happens in other boroughs that hasn't happened in this case?

 

[BoxSurfer]

Especially when, even at this late stage and with all thats been said in 'this meeting' and 'that meeting' I'm being told that the residents concerns are still not being addressed directly by SLaM

I think its dangerous to take this stance as you have. The fact that you describe it as 'wrangling' demonstrates that you too can trivialise the concerns of those immediately surrounding the centre. They do exist, they are real, there are lots of them and they do need to be addressed.

really consider how you're not really thinking about this from the residents point of view. Some of them there really do want to believe this will work. The picture thats painted of them on this forum is really really innacurate.

All they expect is that those who are charged with sponsoring this kind of scheme would act properly under the circumstances. They havent.

Thanks for putting it accross Its true, we have had to fight tooth and nail to get even the smallest possibility of concession to mitigate the risks. And these still only remain possibilites. Nothing concrete. Nothing concrete about improved street lighting, improved police presence, inproved surveilance Understand that these measures are needed NOW, not conditionally on building a drug treatment centre. Looking at this forum anyone would think these were all guarantees but they arent.

They have also offered - again nothing concrete - their suggestion to barricade us all into our dwellings for our own protection. Why offer to do this at all if they are so determined there wont be any problems associated with the centre. It doesn’t follow.

And i want to talk about this idea of a community safety warden. I think it was bob that said something about there being a street warden during the opening hours of the centre specifically allocated to brighton terrace - increasing the presence visibility of anti crime measures.

WHAT???? pfffff

They wont be a Police Officer, or even Community Support Police officer. They will ultimately have a job spec similar to that of the security guard at Woolworths. They wont have any kind of law enforcement mandate. They will have no more power, no more impact than the local traffic wardens. And there are several of those working brighton terrace at any one time just to deal with the parking problem. One 'community-not-really-sure-what-I'm-doing-here-warden' cant cover the whole street with all its myriad of hiding places, if people want to score or shoot up there they'll be able to do it regardless of this presence. We already have CCTV and this makes absolutely no difference. I've seen dealers on Brighton Terrace go after the wardens with baseball bats. What are they going to do, when the trouble starts exactly>?

 

[JayDee2005]

What happens in other boroughs that hasn't happened in this case?

independent assesments. I already said that.

If you're asking me who does them i'll need to get info from one of the BT residents who has investigated this issue more fully.

 

[Blagsta]

independent assesments. I already said that.

If you're asking me who does them i'll need to get info from one of the BT residents who has investigated this issue more fully.

I'm wondering what you wanted to happen that didn't in this case. I'm also wondering if you can point to an example where the assessment was carried out correctly in your opinion.

 

[Blagsta]

Thanks for putting it accross Its true, we have had to fight tooth and nail to get even the smallest possibility of concession to mitigate the risks. And these still only remain possibilites. Nothing concrete. Nothing concrete about improved street lighting, improved police presence, inproved surveilance Understand that these measures are needed NOW, not conditionally on building a drug treatment centre. Looking at this forum anyone would think these were all guarantees but they arent.

They have also offered - again nothing concrete - their suggestion to barricade us all into our dwellings for our own protection. Why offer to do this at all if they are so determined there wont be any problems associated with the centre. It doesn’t follow.

And i want to talk about this idea of a community safety warden. I think it was bob that said something about there being a street warden during the opening hours of the centre specifically allocated to brighton terrace - increasing the presence visibility of anti crime measures.

WHAT???? pfffff

They wont be a Police Officer, or even Community Support Police officer. They will ultimately have a job spec similar to that of the security guard at Woolworths. They wont have any kind of law enforcement mandate. They will have no more power, no more impact than the local traffic wardens. And there are several of those working brighton terrace at any one time just to deal with the parking problem. One 'community-not-really-sure-what-I'm-doing-here-warden' cant cover the whole street with all its myriad of hiding places, if people want to score or shoot up there they'll be able to do it regardless of this presence. We already have CCTV and this makes absolutely no difference. I've seen dealers on Brighton Terrace go after the wardens with baseball bats. What are they going to do, when the trouble starts exactly>?

What makes you think there will be trouble? Can you point to another needle exchange service in the area that has brought trouble? I've asked this a few times now and it seems no one can. I understand your concerns, but they appear to be based on nothing concrete.

 

[netbob]

really consider how you're not really thinking about this from the residents point of view. Some of them there really do want to believe this will work.

its really sad that this is going on. It divides the community. Its a shame and it could all have been avoided.

If there are residents who do want it to work, what do you think would neeed to be be extracted from the council to convince them?

If BT residents came up with a list of redline issues, but were happy for it to go ahead on that site, they would probably get alot of support.

 

[JayDee2005]

What makes you think there will be trouble? Can you point to another needle exchange service in the area that has brought trouble? I've asked this a few times now and it seems no one can. I understand your concerns, but they appear to be based on nothing concrete.

Allow me. I have made reference to my specific experience of the camden one, which is directly comparable to the proposed one on Brighton Terrace.

I have also quoted LouLouBelle directly with her experience of what happens close to such centres. again - in her direct experience.

I'd say thats a good indication in itself that problems of increased crime - thefts, break-ins and dealing can occur around such centres.

Is that not enough to even open your eyes to the possibility??
Or dont you consider increased crime thefts break-ins and street dealing as problems?

I'm starting to think that what people are really excited about it the possibility the the whole problem may be displaced to brighton terrace, Out of sight, out of mind. Great for everyone else. Bad for the residents of this neighborhood.

 

[Blagsta]

I notice you haven't actually answered my question.

 

[Blagsta]

I'm starting to think that what people are really excited about it the possibility the the whole problem may be displaced to brighton terrace, Out of sight, out of mind. Great for everyone else. Bad for the residents of this neighborhood.

Yes, that's entirely right. I'm a NIMBY just like you.


that was sarcasm by the way

 

[JayDee2005]

I notice you haven't actually answered my question.

I have answered it as closely as possible. I cant point to one in the area, because I dont have specific experience of the harbour project, though i will certainly be looking into this.

But you're sidelining again.

I repeat, from my own experience of the Camden one, and from Louloubelles post, taking these two, and ONLY these two things as an example, you HAVE to consider the possibility that putting a needle exchange that will be used by people from the whole borough, who wont be in ANY kind of treatment program of any kind, and doing so RIGHT NEXT to the drug dealer capital of London has its risks.

And no-one of the sponsors are really dealing with this. The police response as i heard first hand was to simply deny that any 'hard' drug dealing happens on the surrounding streets at all. Honestly - thats what they said! Ridiculous and wholly untrue.

Wishing it wasnt there, doesnt mean it isnt there, and doesnt mean that dealer wont be rubbing their hands with glee at the possibility of this fresh new clientelle arriving in their droves from all over Lambeth. It will further entrench the dealer problem, which local law enforcement seem unable to police.

Some residents of brighton terrace have told me some really scary stories about what has happened when THEY have tried to move dealers on. Of how they've been watched and followed, intimidated etc...

Its their current experience that seems to inform them of what may come. And to say that the dealer problem will magically dissappear because of this proposed centre with its needle exchange, is naive for the reasons I've already stated. There will be more chaotic drug users attracted to the area that arent interested in getting treatment, they're only interested in getting clean needles so they can carry on using.

As such I think the residents are justified that Brighton Terrace is a perfact place, peacefull, really full of hiding places, where users can buy and take their gear. A 'possible' community safety 'warden' even if they actiually materialised, is not guarantee of preventing that.

 

[JayDee2005]

Yes, that's entirely right. I'm a NIMBY just like you.


that was sarcasm by the way

of course. Thats obvious
How neighbourly of you.

 

[BoxSurfer]

There often seems to be an assumption that if people are in treatment, that's it - they're cured. This is a myth perpetuated by SLaM who do seem to have a great deal of supporters on this forum.

However there are failures of drug treatment programmes that are not insignificant. These failures have an impact putting these people straight back into the cycle. If drug treatment centres fail at all, then they have to be demonstrated to be able to fail in the safest way possible and not in a way that will exacerbate social issues in the immediate surrounding. A quiet residential street is not a suitable location for such failures to occur despite its proximity to the tube, if the siting of a treatment centre increases the risks to residents, in terms of health, crime, loss of use of local ameneties, and increased antisocial behavour in the community which they work hard to create and sustain.

I know for a fact that prescribed methodone of treatment centres can become another substance to be traded on the streets, I know this because I often find discarded methodone bottles alongside needles and faecese on the estates. One of my neighbours took this up with SLaM with photographic evidence of the batch numbers printed on the bottles, citing it as evidence that people in treatment are not necessarily commited to getting clean. We were simply told that "the methodone originated from outside the borough" and that was it. They werent apprently willing to get involved in a deeper discussion about it, and what it might mean. Another fobb-off.

In every instance where substances are found in the street that originate from treatment programmes, this represents a failure of the programme. The numbers in which we find them demonstrates that something is very very wrong and that no rationale of what would happen those who fail in their treatment so close to a drug dealer problem in the area has been considered.

No one seems to be thinking the unthinkable. And somebody must. I'm sure we're all aware of all of the high profile cases of failures of care systems generally, where 'what couldnt happen'. actually did happen, resulting in more human tragedy.

Does this prove that SLaM and others are able to deal responsibly with the concerns of local residents? Does it prove that potential problems have been analysed and are fully understood, and that there are plans of how to deal with them? - I think not. It’s a clear case of denial of which there are so many.

Ignorance of the possible problems is all were seeing at this point. We have no confidence or trust in those who want to install this centre that they will ultimately act responsibly in dealing with any problems that MAY arise. This is based on our experience of trying to work with them to date. Denial that any problems would exist is one of their common tactics. Its not felt by residents that this tendency would improve any once the centre was built, in fact I believe they would be a lot worse. The centre would already be here. There simply would be no motivation for them to do anyhting other than deny knowledge, deny responsibility, and deny action.

There have been specific cases where they have tried to whitewash certain issues rather than confront them and this is a big reason why we have lost all trust in them.

Basically if you're going to have such a massive centre, you have to consider failure scenarios. Indeed you have to consider worst case scenarios. Otherwise, you're living in a dream world, crossing your fingers and hoping for the best.

hardly realistic

 

[netbob]

It sounds like you are suggesting there is no point trying to treat people at all? Agreed methadone prescription has its problems, but that isn’t a reason to discount all forms of treatment (along with the associated outreach and needle exchange facilities).

I also cant help thinking that the community safety issues that you hint at as possibly resulting from the centre (needles, dealing, intimidation etc) are already being experienced by a much larger proportion of Brixton partly because of a lack of treatment provision.

Obviously the concerns of Brighton Terrace residents need to be taken seriously (accusations of NIMBYism don’t really move things on), and every last consestion should be squeezed out of the council in terms of addressing those concerns. But at the end of the day the centre has to go somewhere and the effects of not going ahead on the rest of town taken into account.

 

[Orang Utan]

Just had this through my door:
Public Meeting: Proposed Drug and Alcohol Rehabilitation Centre, 12-14 Brighton Terrace

Following the Town Planning Application Committee's decision in September NOT TO GRANT planning permission for this centre in this inappropriate residential setting, the spectre of this proposal still haunts us.
It is felt by many that SLaM and the PCT in their arrogance will still try to force this centre upon us local residents, through duplicitous and underhand political tactics. The sponsors of this project have seriously failed themselves, the local community and ultimately their clients in the way they have conducted themselves during the planning application process.
They have refused at every opportunity to even acknowledge, let alone deal with the many and varied concerns of those who live in this quiet residential area and are still unable to provide us with evidence of a similar centre in a similar setting where serious community problems have not occurred as a result.
The local residents associations have decided to hold a public meeting for residents, to discuss what we do next in objecting to Brighton Terrace as a suitable location for this massive and largely 'experimental' project.

The details for this meeting are as follows:
Date - Thursday 17th
Time - 7.30pm
Location: Room 29, Brixton Town Hall (use main entrance)

We realise this is quite short notice, but time is against us. We may have as little as 2 weeks before the next meeting of the Planning Application Committee who will decide the fate of this area. This is our last chance.
We urge ALL local residents to attend, regardless of whether you have been involved in the process or not. The strength and validity of local oppostion is the only thing that has prevented this centre being approved so far.
Your presence and assistance WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
For the sake of our community, we must not allow SLaM to do what is clearly wrong. They must bo back to the drawing board, and onsever a proper and responsible process in finding a location that can be demonstrated as safe, appropriate, and suitable for such services, so they may be of benefit to the whole community.

 

[Bob]

Incidentally JayDee2005 & BoxSurfer - welcome to the boards.

Hopefully you'll stay involved with a) urban, b) the associated campaigns (not all Brighton terrace related) we're running on mybrixton. Have a look at them - they include lots of other things such as getting doorways that are used by crack users boarded up, reopening Bradys, getting rubbish cleared up quickly where it isn't - basically you can use mybrixton as a resource for what you want to do.

In terms of the centre would anything persuade either of you that it could be a good thing? I can't see that anywhere in Lambeth (let alone Brixton) will be non residential - there simply aren't such places in high density urban areas.

What sort of assurances from SLAM/Police/Council would reassure you? For instance how about a full time Community Support Officer?

I'm asking because I think in the long term there is likely to be a treatment centre in Brixton - because it makes more sense to have one where the biggest concentration of problem drug users in Lambeth is - and so we need to make whatever centre it is as positive as possible. Clearly the requirements put on the centre by the planning committee have some potential to make it better if planning permission is granted.