Petition in favour of Brighton Terrace Drug Treatment centre

[IntoStella]

I feel I have to bring this back to the front

"There seems to be some confusion on the part of those supporting this petition about what this proposed centre is for.

The centre is not intended to deal with the problem of chaotic drug users in central Brixton. It's to provide a service for the whole of Lambeth for the minority of people with drug and alcohol problems who volunteer for treatment who cannot get it from a local GP. So it does not have to be right in the middle of Brixton - it could be sited anywhere in Lambeth with decent local transport links. In terms of the needs of service users, it would be better to have two or three smaller centres. So it seems perverse to choose a single location, particularly when it is right next to the most thriving drugs market in the borough."...

I really do think that there are potential problems here. I AM really shocked that others cant see that.

I'm really shocked that you cannot see that that is the ultimate nimby argument.

All you're really saying is 'put it anywhere except next to me'. Like where?

If the users are not chaotic then what is your problem?

 

[IntoStella]

Ah, I know what you mean by sensible place...somewhere like the council estate I live on...push it on the poor eh? I knew it...HOUSE PRICES!

I got bollocked for suggesting it was anything to do with house prices. Apparently it's howwible council tenants that are opposing it.

 

[Orang Utan]

Again you're wilfully misrepresenting people - people are objecting to it cos they have very real concerns - there's no need to polarise things so much. It doesn't help.

 

[BoxSurfer]

Ah, I know what you mean by sensible place...somewhere like the council estate I live on...push it on the poor eh? I knew it...HOUSE PRICES!

I'm not a property owner

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Orang Utan, I think you have been a sensible voice in all this, but for those of us who have been pleading for a drugs treatment centre in Brixton for a very long time indeed, and doing what we can by sitting on boring committees, actively backing sensible Police initiatives (eg the drugs workers in Custody Suites) it is incredibly frustrating to feel like it's all going to collapse because of guff about the playground and general daft arguments against. I think Lambeth have been crap, but when aren't they? I have suffered at the hands of Lambeth in several particularly dreadful ways that have affected my whole family, never mind what I've seen happen to friends, so buggering up on consultation (what's new?) really seems pretty piddling to me in the scheme of things.

 

[BoxSurfer]

I'm really shocked that you cannot see that that is the ultimate nimby argument.

All you're really saying is 'put it anywhere except next to me'. Like where?

If the users are not chaotic then what is your problem?

you ommitted to quote the last part of that post that really underlines my concerns. For that - i'll re quote louloubelle

"I used to work at a project affiliated with a DDU and needle exhange, both of which had premises within a 2 minute walk of my office in a hospital.

Everyone in the hospital was extremely careful about leaving stuff in their car as there were lots of break ins. Perhaps it's the same everywhere, but to us it felt like an area where many of the addicts couldn't resist stealing stuff if it was there, so people were extra vigilant.

Certainly many of the addicts were on methadone, but they didn't want methadone, they wanted heroin and there was a lot of dealing going on just outside the DDU and the needle exchange (much more so at the needle exchange)."

also said by Jaydee2005

"Its their current experience that seems to inform them of what may come. And to say that the dealer problem will magically dissappear because of this proposed centre with its needle exchange, is naive for the reasons I've already stated. There will be more chaotic drug users attracted to the area that arent interested in getting treatment, they're only interested in getting clean needles so they can carry on using.

As such I think the residents are justified that Brighton Terrace is a perfact place, peacefull, really full of hiding places, where users can buy and take their gear. A 'possible' community safety 'warden' even if they actiually materialised, is not guarantee of preventing that."

 

[Orang Utan]

I support the centre myself, Mrs M - I just get annoyed at the guff spouted by both sides, misrepresenting each other as either yuppy NIMBYs or nasty bureaucrats. I don't think it helps matters

 

[JayDee2005]

BoxSurfer, I dont mind you quoting me directly, but I dont want to get drawn into what is an increasingly spiteful debate.

I have to agree with Urang. I think the residents have legitimate concerns and are justified in their objection.

I dont live on Brighton Terrace, but I do live near by. I think that there is some logic. I think its wrong that the location there is the only one thats on the table. Especially when other main road locations could be found that are

A) not so close to the sizeable concentration of dealers
B) a lot more visible, and more mixed in terms of a spread of commercial, leisure and residential facilities - IE. they are frequented by many more people at all times of the day, as to make location of the centre aid its purpose, and prevent any 'difficulties'

Some places lend themselves well to this kind of use, others dont. I'm not sure that the Brighton Terrace one does.

 

[JayDee2005]

I support the centre myself, Mrs M - I just get annoyed at the guff spouted by both sides, misrepresenting each other as either yuppy NIMBYs or nasty bureaucrats. I don't think it helps matters

I've been quite careful not to misrepresent anyone, or spout guff. Do you think that I have done so?
If so - I apologise. Perhaps you can PM me to let me know if or where i have done this, so i can avoid such pitfalls in future

J

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I am happy to swap with the eyesore light-blocking 'luxury flats' that are springing up around me....but Brighton Terrace has to have the 'luxury flats'. As it happens though I've said yes to the new secondary school, the training centre and the building works all along Somerleyton (more industrial units I think).


<edited to add>

I've said no to the demolition of the Guinness Trust Estate though because lots of people in social housing will be ousted in favour of people who will buy up new places with precious little social housing as a sop.

 

[Blagsta]

Add to that the point I've made several times about the needle exchange attracting MORE chaotic drug users to the area who arent in treatment of

I've asked you to point to another needle exchange in the area that has attracted more chaotic drug users. You can't.

 

[BoxSurfer]

I am happy to swap with the eyesore light-blocking 'luxury flats' that are springing up around me....but Brighton Terrace has to have the 'luxury flats'

Where are these luxury flats exactly???

I dont think you can call Nelson Thierry court, Daisy Dormer court, or George Lashwood court. Luxury flats. Noor will they ever be. These are council blocks, and are the best the local residents can make them. In some respects, against the odds. There is a lot of objection to this planned location from the residents there also.

the residents of NTC have recently had a very seriuos problem when someone vulnerable was moved in there by social services, when the flat itself was not secure. This was known to some local drug dealers ond prostitutes. It wasnt long before the entire flat was taken over by these HARD drug dealers and prostitutes, despite residents CONSTANTLY asking the council to do something about the poor state of repair before the problem occured. Such a small thing, through ommission of action (not ommission of good intention) and proper management cause drug dealers to effectively be living 'in residence'.

This is a good example of how care systems can fail the most vulnerable.

 

[Bob]

I am happy to swap with the eyesore light-blocking 'luxury flats' that are springing up around me....

They look into my bathroom when I have the window open - which I think will substantially increase the value of those lucky residents who are a whole forty feet from my flat!

I'm told that Network Rail complained about the metal frame of the flats being put up just as it was finished because the crane overhung the railway line. So they ignored the rail guys and finished it anyway. Then health & safety came along and pointed out that they had no cages to stop people falling off the floors of the building.

 

[JayDee2005]

They look into my bathroom when I have the window open - which I think will substantially increase the value of those lucky residents who are a whole forty feet from my flat!

nice to see theres still some humour here thanks for the light relief!

 

[JayDee2005]

the residents of NTC have recently had a very seriuos problem when someone vulnerable was moved in there by social services, when the flat itself was not secure. This was known to some local drug dealers ond prostitutes. It wasnt long before the entire flat was taken over by these HARD drug dealers and prostitutes, despite residents CONSTANTLY asking the council to do something about the poor state of repair before the problem occured. Such a small thing, through ommission of action (not ommission of good intention) and proper management cause drug dealers to effectively be living 'in residence'.

This is a good example of how care systems can fail the most vulnerable.

thats pretty shocking.
Has it been sorted out now? What happened to this poor individual?

 

[BoxSurfer]

thats pretty shocking.
Has it been sorted out now? What happened to this poor individual?

I havent been over there lately but may see some people i know who live there later. I know that this was still going on when i last spoke to them quite recently. The council still hadnt managed to do anything about it. The dealers were living with him, running his life. He was being left to rot effectively.

 

[Bob]

I havent been over there lately but may see some people i know who live there later. I know that this was still going on when i last spoke to them quite recently. The council still hadnt managed to do anything about it. The dealers were living with him, running his life. He was being left to rot effectively.

Isn't this really a police issue? And did you try your local councillors?

I'm not sure what's happened with it but there was a pilot project on the St Matthews estate where they housed council people in charge of housing, social services, rubbish and the police in one office to try and link these things up. Certainly the community safety guys at the council (at least at a senior level) are aware of this since I talked to them about this sort of specific problem (sadly quite common in Lambeth) in the past - which is why they established the St Matthews pilot.

 

[Ol Nick]

As I said a while ago, there are some people who feel more strongly than me about this. I'm glad you've heard from them.

 

[BoxSurfer]

Isn't this really a police issue? And did you try your local councillors?

I'm not sure what's happened with it but there was a pilot project on the St Matthews estate where they housed council people in charge of housing, social services, rubbish and the police in one office to try and link these things up. Certainly the community safety guys at the council (at least at a senior level) are aware of this since I talked to them about this sort of specific problem (sadly quite common in Lambeth) in the past - which is why they established the St Matthews pilot.

what it actually required was co-ordination from the police and social services, to remove the problem and also to make the flat itself 'safe' to that it couldnt happen again. Obviuosly this chap would have needed to be moved somewhere else, or the same dealers and prositutes would have been right back.

I dont want to speak for the residents, but suffice to say, they were horrified that this happened, because they knew it would - they tried to alert everyone to the potential problem, but nothing was done to prevent it. I felt they did everything right. Everyone suffered, and someone already in a vulnerable position's life was made even more of a misery.

real world nightmare scenario. --> heads up!
someone needs to think the unthinkable. Bad shit happens.

and stop calling us all NIMBY's. Its already IN our back yard. We just dont want it getting worse because of a cockeyed idea of a needle exchange that will cause more potential problems becuase of it's innapropriate location

to steal someone elses words - some location lend themselved well to this kind of thing. Others dont. A quiet residential little street definitely doesnt.

 

[Blagsta]

thats pretty shocking.
Has it been sorted out now? What happened to this poor individual?

That sort of thing happens quite a lot. Mainly due to the lack of social housing in London.

 

[BoxSurfer]

That sort of thing happens quite a lot. Mainly due to the lack of social housing in London.

granted - but it still doesnt excuse the fact that various attempts were made to prevent the problem before it occured. In this instance the problem wasnt cause by a lack of social houing it was caused by a lack of action and co-ordination by the poeple who were tasked with providing care, who all probably thought they were doing a good job.

The system failed - what wasnt supposed to happen did happen.

 

[tarannau]

to steal someone elses words - some location lend themselved well to this kind of thing. Others dont. A quiet residential little street definitely doesnt.

Oh come on, Brighton Terrace is hardly a 'quiet residential little street' is it? I can understand some of your reluctance, but let's not exaggerate and make out Brighton Terrace to be some kind of rural residential dirt track. There's a whopping doctor's surgery down there, a nightclub, various industrial premises and it's certainly one of the main roads for that part of Brixton

You're almost making a PARODY of your own case with such inaccurate, tub-thumping misrepresentations. It's LUDICROUS and COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE.

And yes, the capitals you keep emphasising too many words with are unnecessary and come across as patronising. IMO of course...

 

[Blagsta]

granted - but it still doesnt excuse the fact that various attempts were made to prevent the problem before it occured. In this instance the problem wasnt cause by a lack of social houing it was caused by a lack of action and co-ordination by the poeple who were tasked with providing care, who all probably thought they were doing a good job.

The system failed - what wasnt supposed to happen did happen.

What has that got to do with the proposed treatment centre?

 

[BoxSurfer]

Oh come on, Brighton Terrace is hardly a 'quiet residential little street' is it? I can understand some of your reluctance, but let's not exaggerate and make out Brighton Terrace to be some kind of rural residential dirt track. There's a whopping doctor's surgery down there, a nightclub, various industrial premises and it's certainly one of the main roads for that part of Brixton

oh but it is - and there nothing worse than someone who doesnt live on it, know it or frequent it telling you about the characterisitics of the place where you live.

What you say is misleading, All of the commercial activity on Brighton Terrace that you've mentioned is in 1 building - Brighton House right at the top. It has no other actively used commercial premises. You'll be telling me we all have swimming pools and jacuzzi's next!

This is the same argument we've had with those who've tried to remove our right to object by saying its not even a residential street.

As for the main road thing. As i already said - you cant actually get two cars to drive down here simultaneously. The road isnt wide enough. A lot of the time, the entrance to it is blocked by busses lining up on the main road. There was even talk of them at one time of closing the entrance from the high road all together, as they have done with others.. And the road itself doesnt go anywhere except trinity gardens and the Trinity Pub.

I'm not exagerating when i say i can count the footsteps of those that come down here, individually - mainly on their way to and from work in the morning and evening. Apart from these footsteps - the street is very very quiet indeed. The noisiest time is at night after 1am, with the minicabs and 'crack-fighters' (alluding to someone elses post earlier). It might seem bizarre given its proximity to the high street, but it really is like that. I work from home quite a bit so i really do get to see it at all times.

I'm afraid you dont know what you're talking about

 

[IntoStella]

The road isnt wide enough. And it doesnt go anywhere except trinity gardens and the Trinity Pub.

That is simply not true. Trinity gardens goes round to Acre lane. And the road is plenty wide. And it's no good branding people who won't stand up to your flagrant fibs as spiteful.

How many times do you have to be told? We live there. We know the place.

 

[tarannau]

oh but it is - and there nothing worse than someone who doesnt live on it, know it or frequent it telling you about the characterisitics of the place where you live.

I'm afraid you dont know what you're talking about

Oh fuck off. You're not going to win many hearts and minds with that attitude Mr Patronising, particularly with your ability to exaggerate and misrepresent things spectacularly. I've was born In Brixton and have lived here for more than 30 years on and off, so I'm guessing that I know the area fairly well. Even lived in Brighton Terrace briefly, if that's ok with you...



The fact remains, Brighton Terrace is not a particularly quiet or narrow residential road, in fact it should be one of the larger mixed-use roads off the high street. It's one of the major roads connecting up to Acre Lane.

And whilst the old D Bess Bakery has been closed for a little while, it's another misrepresntation to suggest that Brighton Terrace is solely a dormitory road. It's certainly no oasis of calm - you could make the same claims for peace and quiet for many of the same roads in the near centre, Rattray, Saltoun and even Rushcroft .... if it wasn't for the sound of desperate, chaotic souls in need of treatment that is...

 

[BoxSurfer]

And whilst the old D Bess Bakery has been closed for a little while, it's another misrepresntation to suggest that Brighton Terrace is solely a dormitory road. It's certainly no oasis of calm

Sorry - but i think it is. And so do others who've stood up and said as much.

The fact remains, Brighton Terrace is not a particularly quiet or narrow residential road, in fact it should be one of the larger mixed-use roads off the high street

so how come you cant fit two cars down it at the same time then?

Alright ok ok ok ok - granted! I might be construde as being a little economical with the truth back there, it does go to Acre Lane - but this part of it is one way, and hardly consititutes main road status. you might be able to call it a cut through, at best.

As for mixed use? like I said - Brighton house is the only commercial building operating here, and its hardly a typical commercial buidling. It has its own private gated courtyard, mkaing it, to all intents and purposes its own private little community

I'm not bullshitting you - and i dont want to cause offence. It is a quiet residential place, full of little places amongst the flats and houses that far and away make up the absolute majority of the buildings here - where people love to come and shoot up. I'll go and post pictures of them if you like.

Do i have to live here for 30 years to have an insight? I've lived here for 7. I'd say i have a right to comment.

 

[BoxSurfer]

And it's no good branding people who won't stand up to your flagrant fibs as spiteful.

Sorry - wasnt aware that i had branded anyone anything

(oops my spelling is atrocious sometimes!!)

 

[BoxSurfer]

What has that got to do with the proposed treatment centre?

It demonstrates Murphy's law - that whatever can go wrong, will go wrong. And that its foolish to assume that there wouldnt be problems, potentially serious ones, that will have a detremental affect on the immediate surrounding.

Those that live here are rightly concerned, because we would bear the brunt of any problems that were created. Problems that you could argue would be caused simply by putting the centre in a location that is not appropriate for it. It would worsen them, just beacuse of where it is - If it enables more open dealing and using around it.

Basically I'm still making the same point
- right centre, wrong place = more endemic problems

- right centre, right place = less endemic problems.

But again - this isnt the only argument against. I have to refer back to the 'decentralised' argument - of several smaller centres rather than one big one, being possibly the safest way to do this stuff, as its done throughout the borough today - quite successfully and innocuously

Its also relavant in terms of those who've argued that having a centre here will make council and police services more responsive to any plight. Its false reasoning. response time isnt related to the strength of anyones plight.

(he says trying to avoid the use of patronising capitalisation )

 

[Ol Nick]

It's one of the major roads connecting up to Acre Lane.

Not really. If you've got onto to Brighton Terrace from the High Street you must have come from the south so you could have got to Acre Lane more easily. It's mostly pretty quiet. If it wasn't they'd put speed bumps in.