Petition in favour of Brighton Terrace Drug Treatment centre

[BoxSurfer]

Not really. If you've got onto to Brighton Terrace from the High Street you must have come from the south so you could have got to Acre Lane more easily. It's mostly pretty quiet. If it wasn't they'd put speed bumps in.

good point.

 

[JayDee2005]

If it enables more open dealing and using around it.

Its important to emphasise that I think -

I think its a laudible aim to want to attract more injecting drug users into treatment programmes, but one has to question the sense in doing so in an area like brixton, given the entrenched dealers. Its a huge a gamble. And to take this gamble with Brighton Terrace, an (arguably) quiet, residential street with many sheltered and hidden spaces where users can -- and do -- shoot up and dealers can -- and do -- deal. Attracting more users to this area does seem a little like madness.

As i've said before. I can understand these concerns

 

[Blagsta]

It demonstrates Murphy's law - that whatever can go wrong, will go wrong.

And that its foolish to assume that there wouldnt be problems, potentially serious ones, that will have a detremental affect on the immediate surrounding.

Those that live here are rightly concerned, because we would bear the brunt of any problems that were created. Problems that you could argue would be caused simply by putting the centre in a location that is not appropriate for it. It would worsen them, just beacuse of where it is - If it enables more open dealing and using around it.

Basically I'm still making the same point
- right centre, wrong place = more endemic problems

- right centre, right place = less endemic problems.

But again - this isnt the only argument against. I have to refer back to the 'decentralised' argument - of several smaller centres rather than one big one, being possibly the safest way to do this stuff, as its done throughout the borough today - quite successfully and innocuously

Its also relavant in terms of those who've argued that having a centre here will make council and police services more responsive to any plight. Its false reasoning. response time isnt related to the strength of anyones plight.

(he says trying to avoid the use of patronising capitalisation )

But you assume there will be problems. I've repeatedly asked you to point to a needle exchange service in Brixton that has had the problems you fear. You can't. In fact you probably didn't even know the services were there. If needle exchange = problem, you'd know about it.

 

[Blagsta]

Its important to emphasise that I think -

I think its a laudible aim to want to attract more injecting drug users into treatment programmes, but one has to question the sense in doing so in an area like brixton, given the entrenched dealers. Its a huge a gamble. And to take this gamble with Brighton Terrace, an (arguably) quiet, residential street with many sheltered and hidden spaces where users can -- and do -- shoot up and dealers can -- and do -- deal. Attracting more users to this area does seem a little like madness.

As i've said before. I can understand these concerns

And as I've repeatedly said - there already are services in Brixton. Services which you don't actually know about 'cos they present few problems.

Point me to a service in Brixton that is causing problems and I might take you seriously. Otherwise, you are merely basing your fears on ignorance

 

[BoxSurfer]

"And as I've repeatedly said - there already are services in Brixton. Services which you don't actually know about 'cos they present few problems."

Perhaps because its an example of the right centre in the right place?

 

[BoxSurfer]

Sorry . its late and its been a long day.

 

[netbob]

This is an important project. It will be here for a long time and we ALL want it to have the greatest chance of success with the most MINIMAL possible detremental impact on the local area.

So where is it going to go then, where is the right site? Can you name a site where people are not going to raise simular objections to yourself?

Are you saying it has to go to another site, or that Brighton Terrace can go ahead with certain safeguards?

 

[Orang Utan]

I'm getting a tad annoyed here - IS barnstorming and using wildly exaggerated language - 'flagrant fibs' - oh come off it!

And Brighton Terrace/Trinity Gardens is a very quiet street - certainly the quietest I've ever lived on.

All this is pointless though and detracting from the real issues (as Brixton threads are wont to do)

 

[IntoStella]

I'm getting a tad annoyed here - IS barnstorming and using wildly exaggerated language - 'flagrant fibs' - oh come off it!

No, you come off it. The smell of horse-apples in here is getting overwhelming. And why are you singling me out for opprobrium, orang utan, when others have expressed their opinions just as strongly, if not more so?

Whose side are you actually on because it's got to be one or the other?

All this is pointless though and detracting from the real issues (as Brixton threads are wont to do)

It is impossible to discuss the real issues unless people are being honest about the facts.

And puh-lease, don't trot out the tedious old "S'not faaair, you're playing too rough" whine that people always used to use in the face of arguments they didn't like.

It's a bloody bulletin board. If arguments over crucial local issues can't get heated on a bulletin board then where the hell can they? Stop trying to censor people you don't agree with.

 

[IntoStella]

Alright ok ok ok ok - granted! I might be construde as being a little economical with the truth back there, it does go to Acre Lane.

Well, stop being "economical with the truth" because it won't get you, or the discussion, anywhere.

 

[Orang Utan]

No, you come off it. The smell of horse-apples in here is getting overwhelming. And why are you singling me out for opprobrium, orang utan, when others have expressed their opinions just as strongly, if not more so?

Whose side are you actually on because it's got to be one or the other?

Cos you're the one with the most extreme way of articulating your thoughts on the matter.
I'm on my own side and no others - there don't have to be any 'sides' - this is what is pissing me off.
I think the Centre is a good thing BUT the proposals were steamrolled through a tad and I can see why people are upset about this. I can also see why families might be concerned about this and think their concerns are legitimate - these need addressing if the proposal is to be approved. What no-one needs is for people to get tabloid and hsyterically paint each other as baddies just because they disagree about what is good for the community.
It's childish, unnecessary and counter-productive.
'Whose side are you on?' - jeez, I haven't heard that phrase since school!

 

[Orang Utan]

It's a bloody bulletin board. If arguments over crucial local issues can't get heated on a bulletin board then where the hell can they? Stop trying to censor people you don't agree with.

I resent the implication that I'm trying to censor anyone - that's so much bullshit and you know it.

 

[IntoStella]

Cos you're the one with the most extreme way of articulating your thoughts on the matter.

No, I'm not. See tarannau's comments, for example, which I agree with. This is 'so much bullshit' and it smacks of chauvinism.

I'm on my own side and no others

Exactly. You don't even have the courage of your own convictions. Why make a virtue out of spinelessness?

I think the Centre is a good thing BUT the proposals were steamrolled through a tad

How can something be 'steamrollered through a tad'? That's like saying someone was slightly killed.

What no-one needs is for people to get tabloid and hsyterically paint each other as baddies

Who is getting hysterical? Again, it's the usual old chauvinistic crap. Don't forget to call me 'shrill' and 'strident' while you're at it.

and I can see why people are upset about this.

So can I. But lying about the circumstances isn't going to help anyone.

 

[Orang Utan]

Please don't roll out that stupid assertion that my pointing out your hysterical tabloid language is down to chauvinism. It's not. It's down to your hysterical tabloid language.
It's wilfully obtuse and downright untruthful.
Spineless? Get a grip!

(anyway, back to the thread - sorry, I'm being just as tangential as others - my apologies to all - I'll stop now)

 

[IntoStella]

Please don't roll out that stupid assertion that my pointing out your hysterical tabloid language is down to chauvinism.

Ah. Stupid as well as hysterical.

 

[Orang Utan]

Ah. Stupid as well as hysterical.

not stupid, just obtuse!

 

[Bob]

You'll all be amused to see the following exchange from 'London by London' this week.

RE: CRACKDOWN

'Many of you will know and love Brixton despite the large
number of people who have serious crack and heroin problems
and need help locally. If you'd like to be part of the
solution then sign our petition for a proper drugs treatment
facility in central Brixton at:
http://www.mybrixton.org/doku.php?id=drug_treatment_petition '
- Bob

...

'Yes, please do. And whilst you're at it sign my petition for
AA meetings to be held in our local Wetherspoons. During happy
hour. There are much more appropriate locations locally than a
purely residential street 40yds from where the pushers hang
out.' - LiveBrixtonWorkBrixtonLove Brixton

...

Oh cock off, LiveBrixtonWorkBrixtonLove Brixton - you seem to be missing the point. Services need to be accessible to those that need them. Where are the much more appropriate locations locally that you speak of?

- The Beak

For those people against the centre can we work on a list of things that you're worried about that could potentially be addressed?

Ideas from me:
Delaying the needle exchange until there's been some experience of the rest of the centre
More information on the warden - or possibly a commitment to a CSO
Planning permission to be temprorary until people have seen how the centre works.

Other ideas?

 

[aurora green]

.....

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Do i have to live here for 30 years to have an insight? I've lived here for 7. I'd say I have a right to comment.

Of course you have a right, but telling people who were born here or have lived here three times as long as you, things that are obviously just not so, does not win you friends or influence them towards your way of thinking. In fact your misrepresentation of what Brighton Terrace is actually like has in fact made me even more determined that the whole anti-treatment centre lot are prepared to misrepresent the facts to get their own way.

 

[Kiddo-Whizz]

oh but it is - and there nothing worse than someone who doesnt live on it, know it or frequent it telling you about the characterisitics of the place where you live.

What you say is misleading, All of the commercial activity on Brighton Terrace that you've mentioned is in 1 building - Brighton House right at the top. It has no other actively used commercial premises. You'll be telling me we all have swimming pools and jacuzzi's next!

This is the same argument we've had with those who've tried to remove our right to object by saying its not even a residential street.

As for the main road thing. As i already said - you cant actually get two cars to drive down here simultaneously. The road isnt wide enough. A lot of the time, the entrance to it is blocked by busses lining up on the main road. There was even talk of them at one time of closing the entrance from the high road all together, as they have done with others.. And the road itself doesnt go anywhere except trinity gardens and the Trinity Pub.

I'm not exagerating when i say i can count the footsteps of those that come down here, individually - mainly on their way to and from work in the morning and evening. Apart from these footsteps - the street is very very quiet indeed. The noisiest time is at night after 1am, with the minicabs and 'crack-fighters' (alluding to someone elses post earlier). It might seem bizarre given its proximity to the high street, but it really is like that. I work from home quite a bit so i really do get to see it at all times.

I'm afraid you dont know what you're talking about

The idea that Brighton Terrace can be compared to a quiet rural backstreet is ludicrous and laughable. It just goes to show what kind of mentality residents of that area have. What next? Fox Hunting in Trinity Square?

 

[netbob]

is it me or have they gone very quiet suddenly?

 

[tarannau]

Of course you have a right, but telling people who were born here or have lived here three times as long as you, things that are obviously just not so, does not win you friends or influence them towards your way of thinking. In fact your misrepresentation of what Brighton Terrace is actually like has in fact made me even more determined that the whole anti-treatment centre lot are prepared to misrepresent the facts to get their own way.

Well put. It's not that I can't understand why people may have reservations about a treatment centre near to them, it's more that it's difficult not to be little disturbed by the misrepresentations and near-hysterical hyperbole of the anti-camp.

Brighton Terrace may be fortunate in being a reasonably quiet, mainly residential street. But the claims made for it as being some kind of special case, a idyll of quiet residential homes that couldn't possibly be tainted with distasteful druggie activites like this is a little grating. The same claims could be made for nearly every road in Brixton - nearly ever non-A road thoroughfare doesn't have room for two cars to pass, nearly all of them are surprisingly quiet 99% of the time, nearly all of them have 'hiding places' that addicts could be concealed in. It's certainly no worse for dealers than a host of other more narrow residential roads - Rushcroft Road for one. And Brighton Terrace remains well located, comparatively mixed in use, placed in the centre in town - surely it's right to consider it as a location?

Most of us in Brixton suffer in some way from the activities of users, addicts and dealers. Attempting to falsely portray your patch of the neighbourhood as some kind of put-upon spcial area simply doesn't wash or help the wider picture. It's right to consider the option of Brighton Terrace, not attempt to bluster the proposal out with a load of falsehoods, exaggerations and oversimplifications/misrepresentations...

 

[IntoStella]

Most of us in Brixton suffer in some way from the activities of users, addicts and dealers. Attempting to falsely portray your patch of the neighbourhood as some kind of put-upon spcial area simply doesn't wash or help the wider picture. It's right to consider the option of Brighton Terrace, not attempt to bluster the proposal out with a load of falsehoods, exaggerations and oversimplifications/misrepresentations...

Yep. Well said.







I think we scared them off.

 

[happyshopper]

I think we scared them off.

Tired rather than scared.

 

[jonesy]

Well put. It's not that I can't understand why people may have reservations about a treatment centre near to them, it's more that it's difficult not to be little disturbed by the misrepresentations and near-hysterical hyperbole of the anti-camp.

Brighton Terrace may be fortunate in being a reasonably quiet, mainly residential street. But the claims made for it as being some kind of special case, a idyll of quiet residential homes that couldn't possibly be tainted with distasteful druggie activites like this is a little grating. The same claims could be made for nearly every road in Brixton - nearly ever non-A road thoroughfare doesn't have room for two cars to pass, nearly all of them are surprisingly quiet 99% of the time, nearly all of them have 'hiding places' that addicts could be concealed in. It's certainly no worse for dealers than a host of other more narrow residential roads - Rushcroft Road for one. And Brighton Terrace remains well located, comparatively mixed in use, placed in the centre in town - surely it's right to consider it as a location?

Most of us in Brixton suffer in some way from the activities of users, addicts and dealers. Attempting to falsely portray your patch of the neighbourhood as some kind of put-upon spcial area simply doesn't wash or help the wider picture. It's right to consider the option of Brighton Terrace, not attempt to bluster the proposal out with a load of falsehoods, exaggerations and oversimplifications/misrepresentations...

Right on brother or sister

 

[Dan U]

i agree with tarannau.

where would people rather this place be put?

probably on some council estate somewhere away from their houses. out of sight, out of mind and straight into a place with more than enough social problems to deal with already.

i don't quite get the mentality of some people who move to brixton and bleat about the dealing and crime problems (not that these issue's shouldnt be addressed).

yes its a problem but surely you knew it was happening before you moved here, its hardly a new problem.

clapham is up the other end of acre lane you know.

 

[Kiddo-Whizz]

Well put. It's not that I can't understand why people may have reservations about a treatment centre near to them, it's more that it's difficult not to be little disturbed by the misrepresentations and near-hysterical hyperbole of the anti-camp.

Brighton Terrace may be fortunate in being a reasonably quiet, mainly residential street. But the claims made for it as being some kind of special case, a idyll of quiet residential homes that couldn't possibly be tainted with distasteful druggie activites like this is a little grating. The same claims could be made for nearly every road in Brixton - nearly ever non-A road thoroughfare doesn't have room for two cars to pass, nearly all of them are surprisingly quiet 99% of the time, nearly all of them have 'hiding places' that addicts could be concealed in. It's certainly no worse for dealers than a host of other more narrow residential roads - Rushcroft Road for one. And Brighton Terrace remains well located, comparatively mixed in use, placed in the centre in town - surely it's right to consider it as a location?

Most of us in Brixton suffer in some way from the activities of users, addicts and dealers. Attempting to falsely portray your patch of the neighbourhood as some kind of put-upon spcial area simply doesn't wash or help the wider picture. It's right to consider the option of Brighton Terrace, not attempt to bluster the proposal out with a load of falsehoods, exaggerations and oversimplifications/misrepresentations...

Well put. I am beginning to form a view of Brighton Terrace residents as Barber's wearing waxed coats, wellies and posh country accents shepherding their sheeps through Brixton Market. Gosh Prunella, what a sight

 

[Rushy]

You'll all be amused to see the following exchange from 'London by London' this week.



For those people against the centre can we work on a list of things that you're worried about that could potentially be addressed?

Ideas from me:
Delaying the needle exchange until there's been some experience of the rest of the centre
More information on the warden - or possibly a commitment to a CSO
Planning permission to be temprorary until people have seen how the centre works.

Other ideas?

Hi Bob -

I also saw the london by london exchange and submitted the following myself (in the unlikely event that it is published next week, it might get some new people visiting to U75 boards):

"The Beak –

Your aggressiveness sadly detracts from a very valid debate currently being held amongst Brixton people and I think it may be you who is missing the point. This is not about whether or not a centre is needed – I have not heard a single argument against need – it is about the scale and location (and whether it should include a needle exchange). There are a large number of good arguments being put forward why this is a bad location by both locals and healthcare professionals alike. You are probably already aware of or involved in the debate on the Urban75.com website – the arguments for both sides have been put forward (ad infinitum) and for anyone interested it makes a very good read if you can sift through the unconstructive yet predictable accusations of “Nimby”ism, “Yuppy”ism and “they’re only concerned about their house price”ism.

To answer your question – I believe that whilst there are a number of usual suspects with very conspicuous drug (and mental health) problems around the high street these are probably not the most likely people to use the service. The service is intended to target the much larger (but less conspicuous) number of drug users Lambeth-wide. The borough, being large as it is, would IMO be better served by a number of smaller services similar to the successful Stockwell project – one of which should certainly be in Brixton (or in an ideal world, three - to the north, east and south) but not on the proposed scale of the huge old bakery. Even the petition website says that the effectiveness of any such centre would be hugely reduced if located more than a mile from the patient.

Brighton Terrace is only truly convenient for people who live/work in Brixton. Other than for them, the centre is only really likely to be convenient for drug users who are already in the habit of heading that way to buy their gear. The buyers know the dealers and the dealers know the buyers and the pressure is always there. When my sister was trying to get over years of drugs and alcoholism in Melbourne she only managed after changing all the places she regularly frequented for exactly that reason – she could not expect the dealers (or other users who were not yet ready to give up) to respect or support her own efforts. Breaking the ‘routine’ was also a great help. Sending vulnerable people into 'dealer central' when they wouldn’t normally need to would seem utterly irresponsible.

But if you are right and the centre would really benefit from being placed right in the thick of it then I would suggest the western half of Coldharbour Lane (for example) – e.g. the very large and recently squatted Brixton Cycles building. It’s a 24hr street and right next door to the new Community Police station. In such a location its presence might even act as a sobering reminder to the 'drug tourists' from London and beyond of the possible consequences (for them and others) of their leisurely dabbling. Alternatively, Lambeth Planning is vacating Acre House at the bottom of Acre Lane - a main, busy road with very few residential neighbours. (Just to pre-empt the nimby charges – until two years ago I lived almost backing on to the proposed site – when you could still wake up to the smell of fresh baked pasties - but now live on the other side of Coldharbour and Acre Lanes.)"
END


As far as your own suggestions above are concerned, I think they represent exactly the kind of dialogue that needs to be happening with local residents.

To those I would add the possibility of starting with a smaller service - perhaps renting one of the huge units in Brighton House or the new ground floor unit being built at 20 Brighton Terrace, a couple of doors away from the old bakery. That way, if it does really impact badly on the local area (and it might), the service will not have invested such a large amount on infrastructure that it is impractical or even impossible to move it elsewhere.

 

[Bob]

Hi Bob -

I also saw the london by london exchange and submitted the following myself (in the unlikely event that it is published next week, it might get some new people visiting to U75 boards):

"The Beak –

Your aggressiveness sadly detracts from a very valid debate currently being held amongst Brixton people and I think it may be you who is missing the point. This is not about whether or not a centre is needed – I have not heard a single argument against need – it is about the scale and location (and whether it should include a needle exchange). There are a large number of good arguments being put forward why this is a bad location by both locals and healthcare professionals alike. You are probably already aware of or involved in the debate on the Urban75.com website – the arguments for both sides have been put forward (ad infinitum) and for anyone interested it makes a very good read if you can sift through the unconstructive yet predictable accusations of “Nimby”ism, “Yuppy”ism and “they’re only concerned about their house price”ism.

To answer your question – I believe that whilst there are a number of usual suspects with very conspicuous drug (and mental health) problems around the high street these are probably not the most likely people to use the service. The service is intended to target the much larger (but less conspicuous) number of drug users Lambeth-wide. The borough, being large as it is, would IMO be better served by a number of smaller services similar to the successful Stockwell project – one of which should certainly be in Brixton (or in an ideal world, three - to the north, east and south) but not on the proposed scale of the huge old bakery. Even the petition website says that the effectiveness of any such centre would be hugely reduced if located more than a mile from the patient.

Brighton Terrace is only truly convenient for people who live/work in Brixton. Other than for them, the centre is only really likely to be convenient for drug users who are already in the habit of heading that way to buy their gear. The buyers know the dealers and the dealers know the buyers and the pressure is always there. When my sister was trying to get over years of drugs and alcoholism in Melbourne she only managed after changing all the places she regularly frequented for exactly that reason – she could not expect the dealers (or other users who were not yet ready to give up) to respect or support her own efforts. Breaking the ‘routine’ was also a great help. Sending vulnerable people into 'dealer central' when they wouldn’t normally need to would seem utterly irresponsible.

But if you are right and the centre would really benefit from being placed right in the thick of it then I would suggest the western half of Coldharbour Lane (for example) – e.g. the very large and recently squatted Brixton Cycles building. It’s a 24hr street and right next door to the new Community Police station. In such a location its presence might even act as a sobering reminder to the 'drug tourists' from London and beyond of the possible consequences (for them and others) of their leisurely dabbling. Alternatively, Lambeth Planning is vacating Acre House at the bottom of Acre Lane - a main, busy road with very few residential neighbours. (Just to pre-empt the nimby charges – until two years ago I lived almost backing on to the proposed site – when you could still wake up to the smell of fresh baked pasties - but now live on the other side of Coldharbour and Acre Lanes.)"
END


As far as your own suggestions above are concerned, I think they represent exactly the kind of dialogue that needs to be happening with local residents.

To those I would add the possibility of starting with a smaller service - perhaps renting one of the huge units in Brighton House or the new ground floor unit being built at 20 Brighton Terrace, a couple of doors away from the old bakery. That way, if it does really impact badly on the local area (and it might), the service will not have invested such a large amount on infrastructure that it is impractical or even impossible to move it elsewhere.

Good to see something reasonable. I suppose I'd amend my list of residents wishes to say something like this:
Delaying the needle exchange until there's been some experience of the rest of the centre
More information on the warden - or possibly a commitment to a CSO
Planning permission to be temporary until people have seen how the centre works or a smaller pilot service on a similar scale to the Stockwell Project

I think if you read the documents round why they want the centre at the planning size it's because they are taking up the 20% or so of people who can't be dealt with by the current GP services - and by their nature these people will need more diverse services like more specialised mental health treatment. With a normal service like a physio then he/she could do a day a week at different centres - probably more difficult though with the clients a drug treatment centre will have. In other words the scale of the centre is partly intended because it will allow them to offer higher quality services - which in the case of drug treatment means less crime among other things.

 

[Rushy]

Good to see something reasonable. I suppose I'd amend my list of residents wishes to say something like this:
Delaying the needle exchange until there's been some experience of the rest of the centre
More information on the warden - or possibly a commitment to a CSO
Planning permission to be temporary until people have seen how the centre works or a smaller pilot service on a similar scale to the Stockwell Project

I think if you read the documents round why they want the centre at the planning size it's because they are taking up the 20% or so of people who can't be dealt with by the current GP services - and by their nature these people will need more diverse services like more specialised mental health treatment. With a normal service like a physio then he/she could do a day a week at different centres - probably more difficult though with the clients a drug treatment centre will have. In other words the scale of the centre is partly intended because it will allow them to offer higher quality services - which in the case of drug treatment means less crime among other things.

The idea of planning permission for the whole project being "temporary" or "reviewable" is an interesting one. My guess is that this would result in the proposal being withdrawn since the capital investment required to get it off the ground will be far too large to risk if the plug can then be pulled after two or three years. The centre would have to be 100% certain that they could deliver against any criteria for renewal of the permission and I doubt that anyone is quite THAT confident that the centre will not bring an element of trouble.

The idea of a warden does not fill me with confidence, largely because of the pictures the word conjures up for me. I would need to be convinced that it has been properly thought through rather than just some afterthought from a planning consultant - "hey, I know, we'll chuck in a warden - that'll keep 'em happy". In order to be effective he (or she) could not just be some retired parking attendant but would need a huge range of skills and specialist training. If such a warden could be conceived and a clear outline of their remit produced then it could help a geat deal.

I can see why the size of the centre is important but that only makes me feel more strongly that they should be trying very hard to find a better, less risky site. This project is afterall a pioneering experiment and if it does fuck up, whether because it exacerbates problems for residents or because placing it in the centre of the biggest (I'm guessing) drug market in Britain makes it less effective, it will not help other much needed centres get the go ahead.