Petition in favour of Brighton Terrace Drug Treatment centre

[Orang Utan]

They didn't say it. You did. Their self appointed young, professional, childless spokesman.

Didn't say what?

 

[Orang Utan]

FFS I'm only informing people about one point of view as I have seen it expressed in literature posted through my door - I'm not any kind of spokesman, I'm just getting sick of wilfully obtuse misrepresentation again and again.

 

[IntoStella]

FFS I'm only informing people about one point of view as I have seen it expressed in literature posted through my door - I'm not any kind of spokesman, I'm just getting sick of wilfully obtuse misrepresentation again and again.

Bull. You've already said you're on nobody's side but your own. Those were your own words.

You either have the courage of your convictions about something or you don't. And seeing as you apparently don't, I want to know why you have appointed yourself spokesman for these people. Especially when there already several Brighton Terrace residents posting. It's not as though they need you to speak for them and there is something a little patronising about your assumption that they do.

You are clearly not the impartial observer you're trying to make yourself out to be. Be honest and stop trying to diguise spinelessness as some sort of intellectual superiority. You simply aren't fooling anyone.

We keep hearing from Brighton Terrace residents that, basically, all these issues are far too complex for us to understand. On the contrary, we understand perfectly.

 

[Rushy]

Oh come on, enough with going round and round in circles. I still can't see anything but nimbyism in your argument.

Interesting - particularly since I would like to see a treatment service introduced and both locations I mentioned are closer to my own home.

I'm sorry that I don't agree with your point of view but the "they're all nimbies" argument hasn't really swung it for me.

 

[Orang Utan]

Oh fuck this for a game of soldiers - your talking out of your arse, you silly woman

 

[pooka]

I'd think the main reason is that the council doesn't own it - it's privately owned. So they could only buy it by offering the owner enough cash to give it up - probably a million or two.

I'm not sure the bakery isn't in private ownership. Plus, the proposers are SLaM, not the Council.

 

[IntoStella]

Oh fuck this for a game of soldiers - your talking out of your arse, you silly woman

I rest my case.

 

[Orang Utan]

Oops, I meant you're talking out of your arse! How remiss of me.
Don't fucking call me spineless just cos I disagree with you. That's a disgraceful lie.
I'm getting out before I say something rash

 

[IntoStella]

Oops, I meant you're talking out of your arse! How remiss of me.
Don't fucking call me spineless just cos I disagree with you. That's a disgraceful lie.
I'm getting out before I say something rash

Calm down dear, it's only a bulletin board.

In future, try not pitching in and attacking people unless and until you've actually got an argument.

 

[IntoStella]

Oh, and I was referring to your antediluvian attitude towards women, not your punctuation.

 

[Orang Utan]

First you scream hysterically at so-called NIMBYS who have genuine concerns that should be addressed if we are to convince them of the merits of having the centre on Brighton Terrace.
Then you spout hypocritical nonsense about being on sides as if it's a fucking war.
Then you call me spineless for acknowledging other points of view.
Now you're patronising me - how nice.

 

[Rushy]

Again, that is so loaded with assumptions based on little evidence.



www.drugscope.or.uk
www.nta.nhs.uk

are good places to start if you want to educate yourself about drug treatment

Thanks for the links (there's a typo in the drugslink one - should be ".org").
I assume it's the Harbour Project on Coldharbour Lane which you were referring to. The other locally is the Stockwell Project.

Sorry to hear that you feel my response is so loaded with assumptions. I though I had made it pretty clear that I was basing it what I have seen and experienced of Tunstall Road over a fairly long period. And that I thought lot's of others are probably doing the same.

I don't suppose that you are disagreeing with what I have seen but how I have interpreted what I have seen.

 

[Orang Utan]

your antediluvian attitude towards women

Liar - how did you work that out?
How dare you?

 

[IntoStella]

First you scream hysterically.

*drums fingers on table*

 

[Blagsta]

Thanks for the links (there's a typo in the drugslink one - should be ".org").
I assume it's the Harbour Project on Coldharbour Lane which you were referring to. The other locally is the Stockwell Project.

Sorry to hear that you feel my response is so loaded with assumptions. I though I had made it pretty clear that I was basing it what I have seen and experienced of Tunstall Road over a fairly long period. And that I thought lot's of others are probably doing the same.

I don't suppose that you are disagreeing with what I have seen but how I have interpreted what I have seen.

I'm disagreeing with the conclusions you come to. You're saying - I have seen more drug use therefore drug treatment doesn't work. Do I have to point out the idiocy in that?

 

[gabi]

I think families worried about needles in playgrounds aren't necessarily nimbys

I don't get that logic at all. The junkies are already there, so surely putting the treatment centre in would, if anything, reduce the number of needles lying around the neighbourhood?

I live in Trinity Gardens, and am all in favour of the centre. I doubt most of my relatively wealthy neighbours are though. I don't they've actually put any thought into it though.

 

[Orang Utan]

I don't get that logic at all. The junkies are already there, so surely putting the treatment centre in would, if anything, reduce the number of needles lying around the neighbourhood?

I think so too, but not everyone can be persuaded so unfortunately - I'm constantly encountering needles stickinh out of recycle bins or discarded on lawns, and I can't see how it could get any worse than it is, so the presence of the centre can only do good.

 

[Rushy]

I'm disagreeing with the conclusions you come to. You're saying - I have seen more drug use therefore drug treatment doesn't work. Do I have to point out the idiocy in that?

I guess if you say so (although I've a had a look back through the posts and can't quite see where I concluded that). Not to worry.

 

[Blagsta]

Errrr...

I haven't assumed that they had done nothing to improve the situation - I said they had not *visibly* done so. My own observation over the past eight years (five of them living on Tunstall Road) is that the problem of drug related litter and faeces has increased - it is much worse than it was in 97/98. And that which is visible is what most people will be basing their objections on - and what else do you expect people to do? If there is a good reason why that should be considered an improvement no-one is really communicating it very well.

 

[Kiddo-Whizz]

It seems that your prejudices are based on the same thing as everyone elses - perceptions made on what we observe around us and which are then influenced by our own limited knowledge and life experiences.

OK - assuming that the argument that it needs to be in central Brixton is correct and that no other area with excellent transport links would suffice and that multiple smaller centres would not make the service more accessible - why is Brighton Terrace the ideal location? Why not Colharbour Lane (Brixton Cycles for example) or Acre Lane (Acre House for example) or the five storey day centre on Effra Road that was recently sold at auction. I am sure it would help people to know why this very precise and clearly contentious location is so crucial and what other properties had been considered.

More importantly though, if, as Blagsta says, there are already needle exchanges / treatment centres in Brixton how is this one, which is designed to attract additional non-local users (albeit people who are trying to deal with their addiction), going to improve the problem where the others have not visibly done so. That seems to me to be a valid question?

As far as the exchange itself is concerned, I can see the benefits for the user but I don't entirely understand how having an exchange will necessarily solve the 'needles on doorsteps' problem (to which I would add faeces on doorsteps problem in my own experience). My understanding is that the centres do not allow injecting on site so needles will need to be taken away for use elsewhere. The principle of an exchange is as I understand it that the user will need to produce a used sharp to qualify for a fresh one. If they don't produce one, where do they get their sharps from? My garden is constantly being littered with both used and unused needles so they are clearly readily available without exchange.

So where's the incentive to exchange?
What happens when the user can't produce a needle to 'exchange' -are they excluded from the system and what happens to them then?
Even if users don't leave the needles lying about, they still need somewhere to shoot up and why will they stop using the same doorsteps, front gardens and alleys..?
If they still need to use doorsteps etc.. why will they not be more likley to use the steps and gardens closest to the centre?
And if the centre is attracting users from a larger catchment area, why would that behaviour not be expected to increase?

(Sorry for so many questions!)

Thanks for that. Your answer simply shows your ignorance on the subject.

 

[Blagsta]

NHS Models of Care
http://www.nta.nhs.uk/publications/Models_of_care.pdf
http://www.nta.nhs.uk/publications/MOCPART2/mocpart2_feb03-old.pdf

 

[Rushy]

Thanks for that. Your answer simply shows your ignorance on the subject.

Thanks Kiddo, but that's a bit rough IMO. Lot's of genuine questions there.

Perhaps if people weren't so afraid to ask and answer questions there would be more a bit more understanding about the issues. I'm not afraid to admit it when I don't know something. It's just a shame that you are so reluctant to share the knowledge that relieves you of the ignorance from which you believe I suffer.

 

[Rushy]

Errrr...

I don't claim to be a master of the Queen's english but the sentence which you highlighted [there appear to be more needles and poo in the street now than in 97/98] would appear to be an observation rather than a conclusion and is even conveniently labelled as such.

Conclusions, on the other hand, are the reasoned judgements usually arrived at after interpretation of information, observations and experiences.

What I have said is that people will undoubtedly interpret their own personal observations in concluding whether the services you referred to have been successful. If you or someone else wishes them to include in their interpretion relevant information which you believe they may be ignorant of - just share it.

 

[Ol Nick]

I'd think the main reason is that the council doesn't own it - it's privately owned. So they could only buy it by offering the owner enough cash to give it up - probably a million or two.

The council doesn't own the Brighton Terrace site either. And I think the owners have permission for private housing on the site. They certainly applied for it.

 

[Ol Nick]

I live in Trinity Gardens, and am all in favour of the centre. I doubt most of my relatively wealthy neighbours are though. I don't they've actually put any thought into it though.

I think you'll find more support in "relatively wealthy" and slightly more distant Trinity Gardens than in relatively not wealthy Brighton Terrace. How do you know how much thought they've put into it? Have you talked to them? Or are you airing prejudices?

 

[gabi]

I think you'll find more support in "relatively wealthy" and slightly more distant Trinity Gardens than in relatively not wealthy Brighton Terrace. How do you know how much thought they've put into it? Have you talked to them? Or are you airing prejudices?

My opinions are based on living right slap bang amongst 'em. Strange little spot of Brixton this. I lived for two years on Brighton Terrace too, so I have some knowledge of the 'community' there.

On what are you basing your theory that the Trinity Gardens lot are broadly in favour btw? I'd be surprised.

 

[Blagsta]

I don't claim to be a master of the Queen's english

Obviously

 

[Rushy]

Obviously

From my limited experience of chatting with you, you do appear to be a Master of the Insubstatial Response. Just lots of Grrrrrr...

Not really my bag so I'll leave you to it.

Have fun!

 

[Blagsta]

I say as much or as little as I feel the need to. Writing lots does not neccessarily make you more informed, as you illustrate quite well.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

If it did, Barbara Cartland would have been on Mastermind.