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Petition in favour of Brighton Terrace Drug Treatment centre

Ol Nick said:
The planning officers always supported the plan. The whole Lambeth bureacratic machine supported the plan. This whole fight has been between the liberal Lambeth juggernaut and a few tough people who can see when they're being shat on and will not be rolled over by lies and cant.

You bandwagon-jumpers with your after-the-fact petition have never got your facts right, have never understood what's going on here. Why? Because you choose not to.

I'd contest the point that this is "after the fact". The original consultation was only with immediate residents, the views of wider Brixton residents were'nt taken into account. The planning application is still live and the petition has given the rest of us an opertunity to do show our support. (And you really cant argue that it has got a lot of support)
 
happyshopper said:
Those of us who oppose the location of the Drug and Alcohol Treatment Centre in Brighton Terrace have repeatedly been challenged to come up with an alternative site................

I believe the ex-SEGAS site was backed by Tally Hoey initially, until in became clear that local residents would object (there's a pattern forming here). When I contacted Keith Hill's office to find out his position, he had heard nothing of it and I got the feeling were suddenly bracing themselves for objections from residents (in this case because it is near a school). At that goes to the hart of it, where ever was proposed there would be objections.

The job of planning committees isn’t to propose alternatives it is to assess applications based on the facts. It seems in this case the committee are unable to find a reason to reject the plan.

As far as siteing the facility away from the drugs market, that is indeed a recommendation from prezza's office (and that is all it is), but it is a recommendation to protect users of the facility rather than residents living near by. Several ex-users and service user groups have backed the plan so I don’t see how that is an issue any more?
 
happyshopper said:
However, having said all that, we have already suggested a number of other possibilities, particularly the ex-SEGAS offices in Acre Lane, and have not really had a satisfactory explanation as to why this is unacceptable.


A Planning application was granted to the former SEGAS offices at teh November Plannning Committee to develop a complx of offices and small workshops, including extending the building up a floor. So, perhaps it's just not available?
 
pooka said:
Well, there's a balanced view! This isn't some battle of good and evil. What is playing out here is the inevitable tension between the greater good and genuine local interest. It would be true whereever this centre was proposed to be located. (Where would you put it Ol Nick, by the way?) That's difficult and it's what we have democratic processes for.

As for bandwagon-jumpers with after-the-fact petition, well, after the last planning meeting those opposing it considered it dead in the water - they said as much. Supporters were resigned to the Planning Officers going away and finding a fig-leaf for the committee. It's the level of local interest that's kept the issue live.

Well put Pukka
 
Kiddo-Whizz said:
Do I detect some sour grapes?
We're likely to see sour grapes producing a lot of whine in the near future.

I don't want to be hubristic but with the watertight work the planning officers have done and the weight of local support in central Brixton, I can't see how the councillors can justify turning this down without it looking like blatant political expediency — and that could easily backfire when you weigh up the residents of one road against the residents of all the other roads in the area, who are desperate to see real solutions to Brixton's drug problems put in place.

Besides, if it loses, it will go to appeal, where it will almost certainly win, given that 100 per cent of such appeals have previously been won (see material about this in the agenda). It is possible that the elected members could deliberately allow this to happen because then they can say to the residents "Hey, we tried". But that would be highly unethical. Even with an election coming up. ;;)
 
IntoStella said:
We're likely to see sour grapes producing a lot of whine in the near future.

I don't want to be hubristic but with the watertight work the planning officers have done and the weight of local support in central Brixton, I can't see how the councillors can justify turning this down without it looking like blatant political expediency — and that could easily backfire when you weigh up the residents of one road against the residents of all the other roads in the area, who are desperate to see real solutions to Brixton's drug problems put in place.

Besides, if it loses, it will go to appeal, where it will almost certainly win, given that 100 per cent of such appeals have previously been won (see material about this in the agenda). It is possible that the elected members could deliberately allow this to happen because then they can say to the residents "Hey, we tried". But that would be highly unethical. Even with an election coming up. ;;)

I completely agree with you IntoStella. But I am sceptical that being ethical in this matter is an overiding issues with politicians. Drug use always and, invariably, raises a lot of irrational fears and derivative prejudices. It is simply impossible to have a rational discussion on drugs, given how the media hysterically (and hypocritically) stereotypes and portrays drug users. The politicians are not any different. Drug users and drug use are a convenient punch bag for all the ills in our society and politicians take unashamed advantage of this to further their careers on macho posturing (tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime). It is very sad and tragic. This is an issue that has to be dealt with in a pragmatic and sensible way. But it has become practically and almost impossible to have a sensible and pragmatic debate and solution on drugs issues.

You are right in saying that, should this planning permission be refused, it would go to appeal and probably won. I sincerely hope for everyone concerned that it does not come to that.
 
Justice4all said:
You are right in saying that, should this planning permission be refused, it would go to appeal and probably won. I sincerely hope for everyone concerned that it does not come to that.
It would certainly be an indefensible waste of time and taxpayers' money.
 
IntoStella said:
It would certainly be an indefensible waste of time and taxpayers' money.

Yep, especially of time. But I'd bet it could end up going to appeal of some sort whatever the decision is.

Some local politicians seem to have put alot into opposing the centre (including our normally silent on local issues MP). So if the application went through they might want to appear to continue the fight to avoid looking stupid. Although it seems from the petition that there are many more votes in supporting it that opposing it.
 
pooka said:
(Where would you put it Ol Nick, by the way?) That's difficult and it's what we have democratic processes for.
I'd start with a list of criteria:

(1) On a main, well-lit road
(2) In a commercial or industrial frontage to which access can easily be denied.
(3) Not in an area with a large population of transient chatoic drug-users
(4) Not opposite a children's playground

And I would probably add

(5) Not in an a area where I'd pissed off almost all the residents, even those who might have support ed hte centre, by my arrogant and dismissive failure to engage with them or meet their concerns.

They claim to have been looking for a site for two years. There have been 4 or 5 candidates down Acre Lane and Brixton Hill in that time. But of course the real reason would be

(6) An easy commute for the doctors living in Brighton
 
Ol Nick said:
I'd start with a list of criteria:

(1) On a main, well-lit road
(2) In a commercial or industrial frontage to which access can easily be denied.
(3) Not in an area with a large population of transient chatoic drug-users
(4) Not opposite a children's playground

And I would probably add

(5) Not in an a area where I'd pissed off almost all the residents, even those who might have support ed hte centre, by my arrogant and dismissive failure to engage with them or meet their concerns.

They claim to have been looking for a site for two years. There have been 4 or 5 candidates down Acre Lane and Brixton Hill in that time. But of course the real reason would be

(6) An easy commute for the doctors living in Brighton

The question was about specific locations. Which were these 4 or 5 candidates? Do you know who owns them and whether they want to sell? And how you could be so sure that there wouldn't be the same levels of passionate concern amongst immediate locals.
 
memespring said:
Shit! thats Lambeth out then.

Maybe SLaM could have made an offer on the town hall building. Very convenient, no immediate residents spitting venom around and a more useful use of the building :D
 
Kiddo-Whizz said:
Maybe SLaM could have made an offer on the town hall building. Very convenient, no immediate residents spitting venom around and a more useful use of the building :D
:D

The Vicy Line argument is a bit dead though. You could a case like that for most postcodes in zone 3.
 
pooka said:
The question was about specific locations. Which were these 4 or 5 candidates? Do you know who owns them and whether they want to sell? And how you could be so sure that there wouldn't be the same levels of passionate concern amongst immediate locals.
SLAM has to make that case. They have to justify what they want to do.

It's nonsense to suggest that residents need to be continuously surveying all buildings on the off-chance that someone with a Stalinist approach to local consultation may choose to site a potentially harmful institution down the road from them. SLAM thought they had the might of the establishment on the their side and that they could just walk in an push people around. Well now they know.
 
Ol Nick said:
SLAM has to make that case. They have to justify what they want to do.

It's nonsense to suggest that residents need to be continuously surveying all buildings on the off-chance that someone with a Stalinist approach to local consultation may choose to site a potentially harmful institution down the road from them. SLAM thought they had the might of the establishment on the their side and that they could just walk in an push people around. Well now they know.

Stalinist? Harmful Institution? Pushing people around? Do you always have such negative thoughts in your mind? As far as I see it, it's been a democratic process with no Stalinist style progroms. On the contrary, credit to SLaM they are at least trying to provide a well needed service and resolve the issues that the residents have been whingeing about for yonkers. What will you do or say if the service provided will be a success and the discarded needles disappear and drug users stop defecating on people's doorstep. Will you be man enough to apologies for your vitriolic, offensive, onesided pronouncements about the NHS?
 
Minutes of the discussion of the issue at CPCG for Lambeth's November public meeting have now been published and are available here(Minute 22 et seq).
 
Goodness! Selective mis-quoting! Whatever next?
Kiddo-Whizz said:
Stalinist?
"a Stalinist approach to local consultation" is the correct quote. They didn't do any consultation. They just submitted the planning application out of the blue. They attempted a fig-leaf "consultation" after they realised they were going to be opposed, but they haven't answered most of the questions from the objectors. Youc an see them on the minutes for next week's meeting. If you find the adjective "Stalinist" "vitriolic" and "offensive" then I withdraw in favour of "bull-dozing" if that's a real word.
Kiddo-Whizz said:
Harmful Institution?
"potentially harmful institution" - there are many good reasons for believing that this centre might kick up a whole load of problems. That's what "potentially harmful" means.

Kiddo-Whizz said:
credit to SLaM they are at least trying to <...> resolve the issues that the residents have been whingeing about for yonkers.
Even SLaM haven't made such a ridiculous claim! They need to move because they have reached capacity limits at existing sites and they are being given a budget to expand. It is also more convenient for them to concentrate on one site. They at least don't pretend to be doing anyone other than themsleves and their clients any favours.

What will you do or say if the service provided will be a success and the discarded needles disappear and drug users stop defecating on people's doorstep. Will you be man enough to apologies for your vitriolic, offensive, onesided pronouncements about the NHS?
It will not have made their patronising attitudes to local people and their bulldozer appraoch to consultation any more acceptable. If it succeeds then it is a big gamble that paid off for them. That doesn't justify the way they have tried to force their gamble on people living and working nearby.
 
Old Nick, the thing I dont get is you keep on flipping between complaining about the lack of consultation, and demanding alternative sites. Which one are you really after?

Lack of consultation suggests that you think the whole thing could be a goer if only SLAM would consult more. Whilst for the latter assumes that Brighton Terrace is an inherantly unworkable location, in which case consultation is irrelivant since residents would never accept the results of one that gave the site approval.

I get the feeling that what you really saying is you wish there was more/earlier consultation so as to give you more opertunity to kill the plan?
 
memespring said:
Old Nick, the thing I dont get is you keep on flipping between complaining about the lack of consultation, and demanding alternative sites. Which one are you really after?

Lack of consultation suggests that you think the whole thing could be a goer if only SLAM would consult more. Whilst for the latter assumes that Brighton Terrace is an inherantly unworkable location, in which case consultation is irrelivant since residents would never accept the results of one that gave the site approval.

I get the feeling that what you really saying is you wish there was more/earlier consultation so as to give you more opertunity to kill the plan?
Oten the state wants to build something that it knows will cause concerns about the effect on the local quality of life: nuclear powers stations, airports, hospitals. They don't usually just choose a place and try to build the thing. They know that they'll only wind people up. Instead there is an evaluation both of the effects of what they are trying to do and an assessment of the impact on the surroundings. If necessary they'll consider what they can do to mitigate the impact.

This is the kind of consultation that was never done for the SLAM centre. They never considered the impact on the local community, they never showed how this impact on Brighton Terrace was acceptable and they never showed that their proposed mitigation would help solve the problems.

(That's the more reasoned view. The Stalinist version makes better copy, though. BTW, if want to add to the "Reasons Against" section of your website the Lambeth Council planning agenda has a good list of all the objections from the reasonable to the paranoid.)
 
Ol Nick said:
Goodness! Selective mis-quoting! Whatever next?"a Stalinist approach to local consultation" is the correct quote. They didn't do any consultation. They just submitted the planning application out of the blue. They attempted a fig-leaf "consultation" after they realised they were going to be opposed, but they haven't answered most of the questions from the objectors. Youc an see them on the minutes for next week's meeting. If you find the adjective "Stalinist" "vitriolic" and "offensive" then I withdraw in favour of "bull-dozing" if that's a real word.

"potentially harmful institution" - there are many good reasons for believing that this centre might kick up a whole load of problems. That's what "potentially harmful" means.


Even SLaM haven't made such a ridiculous claim! They need to move because they have reached capacity limits at existing sites and they are being given a budget to expand. It is also more convenient for them to concentrate on one site. They at least don't pretend to be doing anyone other than themsleves and their clients any favours.


It will not have made their patronising attitudes to local people and their bulldozer appraoch to consultation any more acceptable. If it succeeds then it is a big gamble that paid off for them. That doesn't justify the way they have tried to force their gamble on people living and working nearby.

Nick, I seem to remember the Planning Officer stating at the September meeting that there is no statutory obligation for SLaM to have had a consultation prior to lodging the Planning permission. As for bulldozing, it is still unacceptable. SLaM have not bulldozed anything, they have followed planning procedure and the democratic process correctly. It is also untrue that SLaM have not made the claim that the centre will bring benefits to the area. They have stated this very clearly with good proposals for the area. The reality is that your argument is biased and pessimistic and no matter what is proposed your mind seems to be closed to any alternative view.
 
Just to remind everyone

If you want to come along and show your support for the centre (please do!) on Tuesday the meeting is at 7pm, Room 8 in the Town Hall.
 
And those who are against ...

Alternatively, those who are against giving planning consent for the centre in this particular location can come along as well.
 
happyshopper said:
Alternatively, those who are against giving planning consent for the centre in this particular location can come along as well.

Indeed. I hope that some of you who are against will get involved in the other 'mybrixton' stuff - it's not just about this petition - and you're clearly interested in what's going on in central Brixton - mybrixton will hopefully be a good tool for organising people in favour of all sorts of positive things in Brixton. Some ideas I have at the moment that need people to organise them are:
Adopt a street - organising / finding people to look after a bit of their street and report problems to the relevant organisation

Adopt a ward - be the point of contact between the streets and ward councillors & candidates (since the May 2006 local elections are less than five months away)

Support the market
- all the bits and pieces round the market

Brixton Rec watch - some poeple are worried about what's going to happen to it

Traffic on Brixton Hill - campaigning for the dodgy bits that cause accidents to be fixed

So anyone fancy volunteering themselves for small amounts of work? :D

PS double posted on the original mybrixton thread for obvious reasons.
 
Ol Nick said:
Goodness! Selective mis-quoting! Whatever next?"a Stalinist approach to local consultation" is the correct quote. They didn't do any consultation. They just submitted the planning application out of the blue. They attempted a fig-leaf "consultation" after they realised they were going to be opposed, but they haven't answered most of the questions from the objectors. Youc an see them on the minutes for next week's meeting. If you find the adjective "Stalinist" "vitriolic" and "offensive" then I withdraw in favour of "bull-dozing" if that's a real word.

"potentially harmful institution" - there are many good reasons for believing that this centre might kick up a whole load of problems. That's what "potentially harmful" means.


Even SLaM haven't made such a ridiculous claim! They need to move because they have reached capacity limits at existing sites and they are being given a budget to expand. It is also more convenient for them to concentrate on one site. They at least don't pretend to be doing anyone other than themsleves and their clients any favours.


It will not have made their patronising attitudes to local people and their bulldozer appraoch to consultation any more acceptable. If it succeeds then it is a big gamble that paid off for them. That doesn't justify the way they have tried to force their gamble on people living and working nearby.

Nick, I wasn't commenting on the full quotes, I was just gobsmacked at your using such puerile and infantile words such as Stalinist, bulldozing, etc. This is very strong language and quite offensive. You don't seem committed to having a debate, on the contrary, you seem committed to using inflamatory language with the specific purpose of offending. Do you really think that what you said is going to win any support to your cause? I doubt it. You just come across as an angry, petulant, immature individual with no respect for the democratic process under way. Accusing the NHS of being stalinist and using a 'bulldozing' approach is tantamount to accusing them of corruption and being in league with the planning officers as part of some conspiracy. This is a democratic process in which the planning officers have looked at the pros and cons of a proposal and appear to have found that the benefit the centre will bring to the area outweigh the complaints presented by the local residents. Your contributions only show that you are a selfish bad loser with no interest, nor understanding, of the wider issues of the benefits for the 'whole community' rather than the minority in a specific area. Without pre-emptying the actual outcome of the planning meeting on Tuesday (which may still go against the proposal) wouldn't your time and those of the local residents be better spent on 'thinking' how you can help the centre be a success if agreed by the council? It would in your interest and those of the residents to do so. Brighton Terrace will not become a lawless frontier with needle toting crazed junkies as you seem to imply. Any intelligent person who understand the issues about drug use knows this. This is your chance and those of the other residents to accept this and to get involved in making sure that the centre is a success and will bring great benefits to all the community, including the local residents. Instead of whinging and making defamatory and inflamatory comments, join the NHS in making sure that the quality of life of the residents is indeed improved. That's what intelligent local democracy is all about.
 
Kiddo-Whizz complains about the word "bulldozed" and then replies by using words like "puerile", "infantile", "whinging" about the arguments against the centre.

The people who live in Brighton Terrace can only say it how they feel it - they have been told, in essence, that there is no choice about the location of the centre and that they should just put up with it for the good of the community in general. The consultation has been limited to the issue of how any potential problems can be ameliorated.
 
General thoughts about posts on Drug Centre

I am new to this site -- and posting in general -- but I just wanted to say that I was very upset to read a number of the postings on this topic, as it seems as if Brixton resident is being turned against Brixton resident, and the arguments risk making out one ‘side' or another to be bad guys, when I think we all want the same thing – for our streets to be safer. Some of the comments come from people in and around Rushcroft and Saltoun Roads, and I know from friends who live there how bad things are.

All I want to say is that people living in Brighton Terrace are desperate. All our problems – from the terrifying dealers patrolling their territory with violence and threats, prostitutes fucking on the stairwells, sad junkies shooting up in our communal gardens, to the needles and human turds in our playground – are drug-related, and if we thought SLaM's Drug rehabilitation unit sited here had a microscopic chance of helping in any way we would welcome it. But we don't. We think it will make it worse.

The service will bring more drug users to our neighbourhood -- a huge number will be chaotic users not even in treatment programmes, attracted by the needle exchange. SLaM have blithely said there's no problem with this at the Stockwell project, but the situations are very different. The entrance to Stockwell is on a main road, by a massive roundabout, and with constant traffic. Brighton Terrace is a quiet residential street particularly vulnerable (and attractive) for dealers and drug users because of the way the flats are laid out and slightly set back from the road: there are numerous small entrances, semi-enclosed spaces, bin stores, garages, sheds etc. Dealers (and customers) use them now – waiting until the police patrols have passed by – and its unthinkable that they won't be further attracted to this area and its potential new sources of custom. (They are either so expert at avoiding police surveillance, or don't seem to care, so we don't think SLaM's offer of a daytime warden will have much effect.)

And we do have evidence that in areas where there is a major, open, illegal drugs market the presence of a needle exchange can lead to an increase in problems. This has been described in the Health Impact Assessment by Camden and the City of Westminster (Health Impact Assessment of a Proposal to Establish a Fixed Site for Needle Exchange and Other Services in the West End, 2004). The HIA report states that a fixed needle exchange would have adverse consequences (p12) on amenity for residents and businesses, including the attraction of drug users and drug dealers to the area and an increase in crime and antisocial behaviour. Residents, the business community and service providers agreed (p97) that needle exchange services:
* act as a magnet for drug users and dealers;
* lead to more discarded drug equipment, antisocial deposits, drug-related crime, antisocial behaviour and drug using/dealing in public.

The history of needle exchange provision in the West End (HIA, p43, 4.2.1), shows that at one point the needle exchange service had such an adverse impact on the amenity of residents that the service was restricted to 3 hours a day as a result of Ministerial intervention.

The HIA viewed the consequences of setting up a fixed exchange to be so serious that they suggested, in addition to the lengthy health impact assessment, that an environmental impact assessment should be undertaken once a potential fixed site had been identified ‘to demonstrate that the fixed site and the way in which it is managed will not attract congregations of users, nor encourage injecting in public.' That Lambeth never considered doing any kind of assessment is very worrying, and adds to our somewhat paranoid feelings that Lambeth and SLaM were determined to push this through no matter what the consequences for us.

They certainly didn't consult us until after the decision had been made. SLaM (and Lambeth Council) had decided on Brighton Terrace as the site, and applied for planning permission, by February. Residents (and our local councillors) knew nothing about the project until six weeks later, at the first so-called ‘consultation meeting' in March. By then it was a ‘done deal', and SLaM had already rejected alternative sites, including what seems to us a good location in Acre Lane (the old SEGAS building) which is on a main road next to an industrial estate, served by a number of bus routes and not far from Clapham North. [Despite this SLaM cited ‘transport links' in their rejection, which made us think they were more mindful of their staff -- travelling from many locations including Brighton -- needing the Victoria line, rather than users from the south of the borough who don't.] SLaM actually think this is a good site – and are seriously considering buying it!

Brighton Terrace residents are a desperately concerned group, and it's upsetting to see us portrayed in some of these posts as selfish middle-class nimbys. Most residents are council tenants in social housing, whose homes are surrounded by a bad situation and we think the location of the proposed treatment centre will make it worse.
 
Resident27 said:
I am new to this site -- and posting in general -- but I just wanted to say that I was very upset to read a number of the postings on this topic, as it seems as if Brixton resident is being turned against Brixton resident, and the arguments risk making out one ‘side' or another to be bad guys, when I think we all want the same thing – for our streets to be safer...............

Hi Resident27. Brighton Terrace residents are of course concerned, but surely this is an opportunity to extract commitments from the council regarding to deal with what you have stated is an existing problem "We'll take on the treatment centre, but you need to do X,Y,Z"? And benefit whole of the centre of Brixton at the same time?

As far as alternative locations go, the treatment and needle exchange need to be where the problem is (i.e. Brixton). Do you think that users are going to hop on a bus to get a clean needle? A needle exchange attracting users is a needle exchange taking syringes out of circulation (rather than disguarded on the streets).

The Acre Lane site, may have its merits but local residents there have already made noises against it (I think it's near a school). There is no zero cost option here – where ever it is located it is going to be near a residential area and local residents will have concerns. Is Brighton Terrace really such a special case?

The transport from Brighton argument keeps on getting brought up, but its pretty limp and, as you admit, based on an assumption. You could apply the same argument to pretty much anywhere in zone 3.

You are probably right that most people who signed the petition do want the same kind problems solving, but part of the solution requires decent drug treatment services in Brixton.
 
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