Petition in favour of Brighton Terrace Drug Treatment centre

[IntoStella]

Some residents of brighton terrace have told me some really scary stories about what has happened when THEY have tried to move dealers on. Of how they've been watched and followed, intimidated etc...

Its their current experience that seems to inform them of what may come.

I am so glad I live in the safe environs of Rushcroft Road and not the drug torn warzone that is Brighton Terrace.

Scary stories -- that's what this is all about, isn't it? Daily Mail style scaremongering backed up with no evidence. You have no logical reason to believe that a treatment centre will make things worse; all you have is your fevered imagination.

For the 94th time, this is a facility that will be open during the day, minimising the risk to residents of crime/intimidation/etc. It will hold no interest for dealers or users at night because it will be shut up tight.

I work next door to what used to be a drug treatment centre. I never saw anybody hanging around when it was closed. In fact, I very rarely saw anyone hanging around when it was open. They would come and go in a quiet and orderly manner. And this is in a very expensive street in Hammersmith. No children got stabbed with needles. cars did not get broken into. In fact nothing bad happened at all.

 

[Blagsta]

I used to work in a project in Croydon that had a needle exchange service. We didn't have dealers hanging around. I've never seen any hanging around whenever I've been to The Harbour either.

 

[aurora green]

I am so glad I live in the safe environs of Rushcroft Road and not the drug torn warzone that is Brighton Terrace.

Lol! I know what you mean, I'm glad I'm tucked away safely on my estate .
We all deal with crime, and fear of crime around here, where ever we live, rich or poor.
Opposition to this much needed centre is just total nimbyism isn't it?

 

[BoxSurfer]

Lol! I know what you mean, I'm glad I'm tucked away safely on my estate .
We all deal with crime, and fear of crime around here, where ever we live, rich or poor.
Opposition to this much needed centre is just total nimbyism isn't it?

No - its not.

objections are many varied and justified. Your tendency to dismiss them out of hand is EXACTLY the kind of behaviour we have seen from SLaM and its really doesnt help.

As often stated here are some reasons

the fact that residents werent consulted on the proposal BEFORE the planning application went through. consultation started in mid march, the planning application went through in february.

The fact that no environmental impact assesment has been carried out. this has been done in other boroughs.

the presentation of the proposal as 'fait accomplis' - a done deal, BEFORE consultation with local residents

failure to present any reaslistic alternative sites. Most of those in the proposal really are so wholly unsuitable as to constitute 'padding out' of this document. - further to this one other possible alternative site on acre lane (a main road) was dismissed as being to far away, based on an academic research paper on travel that was produced in the United States!

failure to deal in a satisfactory way with the many and varied issues/concerns/worries/fear of local residents. Whether others here beleive it or not, we have A RIGHT to have them, and a right to have them addressed.

the fact that Brighton terrace is a quiet little residential street - it isnt a thoroughfare of any kind and as such, and thus would be prone to loitering, increased street dealing, drug taking, possible crime and other antisocial issues, as well as the loss of use of local amenities such as the childrens playground. The fact that no other centre exists that can be used to predict possible outcomes. Its the first of its kind. Its an experiment.

The tendency of SLaM to be economical with the truth about the proposed centre, where NO upper limits have been set as to numbers (this is categorical) would have ANY kind of detremental impact on the area. Indeed from our initial consultation we were deliberately decieved about the scale of this centre in terms of number of staff and numbers of projected service users. its literally DOUBLE the size that we were initially told.

i can go on....

 

[IntoStella]

the fact that Brighton terrace is a quiet little residential street - it isnt a thoroughfare of any kind

This is simply not true. It's a wide thoroughfare with large buildings that has always been pretty lairy. The opponents of this centre are simply burying their heads in the sand because a drug treatment centre would somehow make it ''official" that there is a problem, whereas now they can remain in denial about it, even though a treatment centre would improve quality of life for people not only in Brighton Terrace but also in the rest of central Brixton.

We suffer - and severely, almost every night - because of your intransigence.

Despite the Ritzy gates being closed I was woken up sporadically all through the night by fighting crackheads again last night.

 

[BoxSurfer]

It sounds like you are suggesting there is no point trying to treat people at all? Agreed methadone prescription has its problems, but that isn’t a reason to discount all forms of treatment (along with the associated outreach and needle exchange facilities).

I'm not at all. Please dont suggest that. I'm just saying that with drug treatment centres come a RISK of failures. And the risks and consequences of such failures need to be addressed as part of this plan. Those behind this proposal are not being realistic on not dealing with such issues, which to date, they dont.

Obviously the concerns of Brighton Terrace residents need to be taken seriously (accusations of NIMBYism don’t really move things on), and every last consestion should be squeezed out of the council in terms of addressing those concerns. But at the end of the day the centre has to go somewhere and the effects of not going ahead on the rest of town taken into account.

Again - the residents have serious concerns, not with the idea of a centre in theory, but we think that such a LARGE SCALE centre would be better located on a main road or thoroughfare of some kind, where a constant flow of poeple and traffic and high visibility would solve alot of the safety and security issues were concerned about. This is echoes in the official guidelines from the ODPM in siting such a centre, which SLaM have chosen to ignore.

Again - I reitterate, that SLaM have often tried to diminish our right to have these concerns by saying that Brighton Terrace is not even a residential street.



yes it has to go somewhere, but have SLaM and lambeth council really given this proposal the best chance of success but consulting with residents first on a range of sites (at least 3) for discussion, with RELAVANT impact assesments etc...

The public debate that is starting to occur now should have happened way back at the begining

This is an important project. It will be here for a long time and we ALL want it to have the greatest chance of success with the most MINIMAL possible detremental impact on the local area. Based on our evidence of the conduct of its sponsors we simply dont think those behind it have really handled this properly.

 

[IntoStella]

Again - I reitterate, that SLaM have often tried to diminish our right to have these concerns by saying that Brighton Terrace is not even a residential street.

Unfortunately, from where many of us are standing, the 'right' the opponents feel is under attack seems to be the right to say 'fuck you' to the rest of central Brixton.

 

[BoxSurfer]

This is simply not true. It's a wide thoroughfare with large buildings that has always been pretty lairy.

oh come on.

apart from Brighton House, at the foot of the road, theres nothing here but houses and flats. It doesnt go anywhere, or TO anything, except Trinity Gardens and the little pub!

How you can describe it as WIDE, when two cars cant even pass by each other simultaneously!

And describing it as lairy? Sure - it has its moments, but you can count the individual footsteps of those who use it, its that quiet. To say that installing a centre that would realistically be seeing up to 1000 people per week will not have even a POTENTIAL impact is just wrong.

And thats all were saying to SLaM and others. Consider the possibility. Be realistic.

It ought to be mentioned here that Lambeth council themselve held the key to this issues. There were a number of sites that would have been PERFECTLY suitable for this project, that they sold to property developers recently. The old asian community resource centre on Brixton raod, and registry office, down by the police station are two examples. I urge you to look at really who is willing to put their money where there mouth is in terms of citing this centre properly

To try to force this centre in an inappropriate location, in one of the few remaining buildings the they dont own, while in the bacground they are selling off all the suitable buildings, in more prominent locations. Please GET the levels of double standards. Direct your anger at THEM, becuase they are a great deal to blame in this.

You cant score points just because you get woken up at night. for me its minicabs that park down here beeping their horns at 3am. It still doesnt make an argument that Brighton Terrace is a suitable location where such services can be absorbed without creating an impact.

 

[BoxSurfer]

Unfortunately, from where many of us are standing, the 'right' the opponents feel is under attack seems to be the right to say 'fuck you' to the rest of central Brixton.

thats just offensive.
Its not reasonable. I'd urge you to calm down a bit before making such inflamatory posts. You're RANK out of order!

 

[Mrs Magpie]

the fact that residents werent consulted on the proposal BEFORE the planning application went through. consultation started in mid march, the planning application went through in february.

The fact that no environmental impact assesment has been carried out. this has been done in other boroughs.

the presentation of the proposal as 'fait accomplis' - a done deal, BEFORE consultation with local residents

Welcome to Lambeth!
I've lived here for nearly a quarter of a century and I'm amazed you have any faith in Lambeth's 'consultation' or 'partnership' processes and feel singled out....I suspect you haven't lived here for very long, or are touchingly untroubled by cynicism. Something that has been true in my experience of living here is that whoever is power at Lambeth Council, the residents are always shafted. However, what is needed now, more than anything is some sort of service for drugs users in Central Brixton. They already use the Pavilion Practice (which is also my GP) and I've never had any hassle from drug users there which is but a spit from where the new centre will be. I have had hassle from drug users elsewhere in Brixton often and often and often, and people's lives (not just the addicts) are made miserable by addiction. I hope the centre will be a massive success and that it happens soon.

 

[IntoStella]

What is it that offends you? The use of the word fuck or my analysis of the bottom line? This thread is just going round in ever decreasing circles with increasing quantities of smokescreen. I can't be arsed with that.

I gave my honestly held opinion as a resident of Rushcroft Road who is driven to distraction, along with my neighbours, every night. It is also my honestly held opinion that a local drrug treatment centre would help matters and that it would certainly do no harm.

I would welcome such a centre in Rushcroft road with open arms and so -- I know -- would the vast majority of my neighbours because compared with what we have to endure, seeing the occasional drug user walk up the street in the day on their way to get treatment would be a thoroughly welcome sight.

But a venue in Brighton Terrace has been chosen instead. So why are you so much more important than us? We are all within a stone's throw of each other. We cannot keep shunting this problem from street to street and back again.

 

[BoxSurfer]

Lol! I know what you mean, I'm glad I'm tucked away safely on my estate .
We all deal with crime, and fear of crime around here, where ever we live, rich or poor.
Opposition to this much needed centre is just total nimbyism isn't it?

Again - residents dont oppose the centre. We see the need for it, but we want it to work for the whole community. We dont feel as residents that our legitimate issues should be sidelined and that we ultimately have to bear the brunt of any resulting issues from this 'experiment'

But we think that placing it in this location would cause potentially serious issues. No other centre like in exists in such a setting and as such this IS experimental.

We also think that putting it somewhere suitable will reduce the risks of such issues in itself. This is the reason why the ODPM guidelines exist. They say more or less the same thing.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Again - residents dont oppose the centre. We see the need for it, but we want it to work for the whole community.

....as long as it's not anywhere near you.

 

[IntoStella]

thats just offensive.
Its not reasonable. I'd urge you to calm down a bit before making such inflamatory posts. You're RANK out of order!

No, I'm not. This isn't a council meeting. Or a church. I can express my honestly held opinion as I wish within the posting rules of the boards and those do not preclude a poster from saying that someone has a 'fuck-you' attitude to other residents.

You've thrown up smokescreen after smokescreen and I'm more than a little irritated by your assumption that we're going to swallow it.

You haven't yet explained why residents of Brighton Terrace are that much more important than other local residents that it would be morally wrong to place a treatment centre in their road.

 

[BoxSurfer]

I'm not at all. Please dont suggest that. I'm just saying that with drug treatment centres come a RISK of failures. And the risks and consequences of such failures need to be addressed as part of this plan. Those behind this proposal are not being realistic on not dealing with such issues, which to date, they dont.

further to this. What this area has - specifically - that distinguishes it from other areas where such centres exist it, is a MASSIVE drug dealer problem. No one is really talking about the possible impact of that. This is what i was trying to draw attention to when i was talking about the impact of failure within drug treament programmes. NOT that theyre all just shit and they shouldnt bother. Those who think that are spectacularly missing the point

The Dealers wont be in treatment programmes, they will arguably looking to be visible, or more, to those vulnerable useing this centre. And as such, a quiet little residential street is a perfect place for them to do that, unchallenged, and undistubed.

Again - one community safety warden will not prevent that.

Is it really so hard to consider?

I'm really really REALLY sorry, that this is such a divicive issue.
I hate the idea that its generating so much ill will. But its NOT our fault!

Us residents really dont enjoy being in this most invidious position at all.

 

[Blagsta]

No other centre like in exists in such a setting and as such this IS experimental.

This just isn't true though is it? Go and visit Kaleidoscope in Kingston. A prescribing centre, rehab and drop in in a residential area. Yes, there are people hanging outside who look rough, but last time I was there, they certainly weren't causing any trouble.

 

[Blagsta]

further to this. What this area has - specifically - that distinguishes it from other areas where such centres exist it, is a MASSIVE drug dealer problem.

This isn't true either.

 

[BoxSurfer]

This just isn't true though is it?

I'm not aware of one.

We have asked on about 10 different occasions for SLaM to privide us with evidence of a centre of this size in a similar residential setting, close to such a massive dealer probelm as a frame of reference. They have not been able to do so.

are you denying that there is a dealer problem here???

 

[Blagsta]

see my edit about the scope in Kingston

 

[Blagsta]

are you denying that there is a dealer problem here???

no, why do you think that?

 

[Mrs Magpie]

BoxSurfer, you really aren't convincing people of the rightness of your position with the hysterical hyperbole. You aren't talking to people who live in Weybridge who read the Daily Express...we are all Central Brixton residents, some since probably before you were born, so it just doesn't wash.

 

[BoxSurfer]

....as long as it's not anywhere near you.

I've no problem with it being near me. (edit:I cant speak for everyone else.)

Just that there are potential risks and issues etc... that are NOT being dealt with in a satisfactory way. If you go back and read all Jaydee2005's posts as well as my own, you'll see thats re-itterated over and over.

given that these have so far largely been ignored by those who propose the centre, we dont believe that any problems will be 'managed' if the centre would have gone here. To back this up there are many specific references in these posts to the obscene levels of 'denial' we've received.

I've not been angry, personally insulting, or diminishing of anyones point of view.

 

[BoxSurfer]

BoxSurfer, you really aren't convincing people of the rightness of your position with the hysterical hyperbole. You aren't talking to people who live in Weybridge who read the Daily Express...we are all Central Brixton residents, some since probably before you were born, so it just doesn't wash.

I've not been angry, personally insulting, or diminishing of anyones point of view. I tried not to be sarcastic or take the mickey. I think that you'd get further by doing the same.

i respect the fact that you're probably older than me, and have lived here longer. I'm not sure how this is relevant to this specific debate. I hope that I will still live here when your time has past and you're pushing up daisys. Point I'm trying to make is that I'm committed to this place. I love it to. its my home and i take the issue of social responsibility seriously

The fact you've lived here longer or are older I doesnt alter the facts as i've tried to present them. As even handedly as possible, just to present an alternative POV.

To those of you who think everyone who lives on Brighton Terrace are lazy fat MINBY fascists who sit on our fat arses all day and dont put anything back into the community, plase go and take a look at the transformation of the garden area outside NTC. This project, planned and executed by two local residents is an absolute wonder, and has done SO much to bring people in this area together, and has a number of really innovative wildlife and insect conservation features. These guys have worked SO hard in doing this. They planned it, submitted proposal for it, got funding for it, and built it. I think its really unfair that there seems to be this prevailant opinion that we just want everything 'our way' but that we sit here all day and dont really do anything.

It really saddens me.

SLaM the PCT and Lambeth Council could and should have acted very differently in their approach to this. They've had enough time to do so. That you are aware of this consistently appaling behaviour in the planning process really doesnt make it okay. And it doesn't get them off the hook.

Again - all we've ever asked is that our concerns are listened to, and that those behind the proposal demonstrate that they really are in touch with this street, are sensetive to the issues, and possible problems, and have realistic contingencies for how to deal with them

is that really so much to ask?

 

[IntoStella]

They already use the Pavilion Practice (which is also my GP) and I've never had any hassle from drug users there

The receptionists, on the other hand...

 

[BoxSurfer]

No, I'm not. This isn't a council meeting. Or a church. I can express my honestly held opinion as I wish within the posting rules of the boards and those do not preclude a poster from saying that someone has a 'fuck-you' attitude to other residents.

You've thrown up smokescreen after smokescreen and I'm more than a little irritated by your assumption that we're going to swallow it.

You haven't yet explained why residents of Brighton Terrace are that much more important than other local residents that it would be morally wrong to place a treatment centre in their road.

I'd just like you to leave vehemence and aggression at the door. Personally i find them really negative and generally unconstructive

its not a moral issue - its a practical one.
Likewise I dont see why ANYONE should have to suffer in this instance. If SLaM, lambeth and others had really done things right.

You're maybe justified in saying that I haven't yet explained why residents of Brighton Terrace are that much more important than other local residents.

thats because its not what i think.
This isnt about who suffers most. or who has the right to suffer and who doesnt, or vice versa

This could and should have been handled better, and should NOT have been tried to be forced through, in the way that it has been, while masquerading what are potentially serious issues - nothing more.

 

[IntoStella]

its not a moral issue - its a practical one.

This is simply not true. If you continue to be dishonest about this then you cannot be surprised if it annoys people -- and getting on your high horse is not going to change that.

You cannot fool people with superficial appearances. No matter what language you couch it in, much of what you have said is simply not the case, as has also been pointed out by others including blagsta and mrs magpie. We are your neighbours. You cannot pull the wool over our eyes about the truth of this situation.

 

[BoxSurfer]

I feel I have to bring this back to the front

"There seems to be some confusion on the part of those supporting this petition about what this proposed centre is for.

The centre is not intended to deal with the problem of chaotic drug users in central Brixton. It's to provide a service for the whole of Lambeth for the minority of people with drug and alcohol problems who volunteer for treatment who cannot get it from a local GP. So it does not have to be right in the middle of Brixton - it could be sited anywhere in Lambeth with decent local transport links. In terms of the needs of service users, it would be better to have two or three smaller centres. So it seems perverse to choose a single location, particularly when it is right next to the most thriving drugs market in the borough."

Add to that the point I've made several times about the needle exchange attracting MORE chaotic drug users to the area who arent in treatment of any kind.

I really do think that there are potential problems here. I AM really shocked that others cant see that.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

BoxSurfer you're missing the point of what I was saying...Lambeth shits on people from a great height....look through the archives on this forum and you'll have documentary evidence. We've all heard 'Great idea, wrong location' many many times before too. Those of us who have been here a long time have heard similar arguments to the Brighton Terrace residents too because we've heard them all before ad nauseam whether it's about help for drug addicts, people with mental illness or alcohol problems. I have also heard similar arguments from people opposed to a house for people with disabilities. People love the idea of helping the vulnerable as long as it is somewhere else so they don't have to be offended by swearing, scabby arms or possible embarrassing dribbling from the disabled.

For instance, all the guff about the proximity of a childrens playground. I worked on a kids project for 15 years until 9 years ago and one of my jobs, first thing in the morning, was to walk the site and remove needles and drugs paraphenalia that had been left by junkies overnight. The park closest to me is full of junkies, fixing up in their groins and leaving needles everywhere. No drugs treatment centres nearby either. Stop gazing at the navel of Brighton Terrace and look around you.

I love Brixton too with a passion. There are already loads of junkies around the area you live. A couple I know looked at a house there and didn't buy because of the existing prevalence of addicts. Incidentally they are a spit from a centre for people with alcohol and mental health problems and the only problem I have known them have day to day is noisy youths on motorbikes. There already is a big problem with drug addicts in the Central Brixton area and now there is a project mooted to help them, but the residents don't want it. There has been some help for addicts at Pavilion for a while and if it hadn't been for the fact I know one of the drugs workers because he drinks in the same pub as me, I wouldn't even have known it was there. It didn't make me want to change my doctor, it made me pleased that addicts were being helped as they get precious little help.

My daughter was robbed close to where you live yesterday afternoon. You can bet your bottom dollar her being robbed had a drugs connection. There is a problem that affects us all, you included, so why do you want to squash a possible solution?

 

[BoxSurfer]

There has been some help for addicts at Pavilion for a while and if it hadn't been for the fact I know one of the drugs workers because he drinks in the same pub as me, I wouldn't even have known it was there. It didn't make me want to change my doctor, it made me pleased that addicts were being helped as they get precious little help.

not such a long time ago the gates to this centre were deliberately sabotaged, and during the months it took to get them fixed you should have seen the number of people that were using that alleyway at the entrance to Pavilion Practice as a shooting gallery day and night. The police were here every hour or so moving them on.

You dont find people shooting up on main roads that much. Not in my experience

Experience tells me that quiet little residential side street with lots of hiding places are a coveted hangout for people who want to do hard drugs. Putting a Needle Exchange for chaotic drug users from all around the borough in the middle of one, with the dealer problem close by will potentially create a massive problem.

but i guess thats okay, becuase it wont be your problem anymore, right?

wrong!

put this in a SENSIBLE location and we can minimise the impact for EVERYONE without any one single part of the community bearing the brunt of any potential risksin such a large scale project. Its as simple as that.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Ah, I know what you mean by sensible place...somewhere like the council estate I live on...push it on the poor eh? I knew it...HOUSE PRICES!