P&O Ferries sacks workers and docks ships

[SpookyFrank]

Hows it aggravated? Unless they are causing damage or disrupting lawful activity and it sounds like P@O announced they weren't running the ferries today anyway so hard to make that stick. Trespass otherwise is civil (thats kind of the pint of the current C&P bill). There may be all sorts of weird Victorian offences relating to ships, a bit like all the odd Railway ones. I can see Kent and Humberside (and Welsh forces if they are affected?) senior plod telling any private security company to do one if they start 'detaining' people in these circumstances.

Besides, anyone who doesn't have crown servant / office holder cover (plod, immigration, screws etc) who starts using handcuffs on people is asking for trouble, in a kind of having to sell your car if not your house kind of way, if it all goes pear shaped - and I'd be really surprised if any insurance company would write a policy for a security guard using any kind of cuffs, especially rigid ones. There is loads of potential for permanently injuring or even killing people pretty quickly if you make even quite small errors.

Aggravated trespass is a criminal offence, and a very vague and easily-abused one at that. But there'll be no trials and probably no charges either; once the workers are off the ships it doesn't matter what pretext was used to remove them.

As for police siding with workers against scab security, that has literally never happened.

 

[SpookyFrank]

This ^^

Boris needs to nationalise the fuck out of P&O , they are a major player in UK ferries , loads of islands around the UK depend on them, there aren't many other Ferry operators (Stenna?) . Surely British Ferry Services would please the Brexit lot ? Saving British jobs & that.

We've probably still got Grayling's pizza delivery lads on retainer.

 

[marty21]

Can the other ferry operators take up the slack ? I doubt they have the capacity or the extra ships ?

 

[quiet guy]

The amount of freight traffic that they handled through Hull to Rotterdam and Zeebrugge is massive. It will only take a few of the big transport groups to start diverting elsewhere and the service will tank even further.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I'm guessing most of P&O's business comes from companies who couldn't give a fuck about their outrageous treatment of their employees, or who would like to be doing the same themselves. They also run a significant proportion of the UK's essential sea freight infrastructure, it's not like there's loads of other ferry companies with masses of spare capacity sitting idly by that people can go to instead is it?

MPs being cross in parliament is just noise unless it makes the government act. Is it going to?

Make fire/rehire illegal.

It is most other places in Europe.

If (and we don’t know one way or the other) they are operating under the jurisdiction of their flag of convenience or UAE labour laws that too must be ruled out ( suspect it already is, but the sea is weird), they only operate U.K. to France, Holland, Ireland and a domestic route to Northern Ireland. That should mean that the employment laws they are subject to must be from one of those countries, with the common denominator being the U.K. it should be the U.K. and fire/rehire outlawed for the utter pisstake that it is.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Can the other ferry operators take up the slack ? I doubt they have the capacity or the extra ships ?

Grayling’s nipped down Dominoes to see if they can help out.

 

[hitmouse]

Make fire/rehire illegal.

It is most other places in Europe.

If (and we don’t know one way or the other) they are operating under the jurisdiction of their flag of convenience or UAE labour laws that too must be ruled out ( suspect it already is, but the sea is weird), they only operate U.K. to France, Holland, Ireland and a domestic route to Northern Ireland. That should mean that the employment laws they are subject to must be from one of those countries, with the common denominator being the U.K. it should be the U.K. and fire/rehire outlawed for the utter pisstake that it is.

As I understand it, it sounds like this is "fire and hire someone else", I dunno what the legality of that is in Europe?

 

[SpookyFrank]

I thought you couldn't be made redundant if someone else is hired to replace you.

Seems like they've just squared that circle by simply sacking everyone instead. Which you'd think there'd be laws against but apparently not.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

As I understand it, it sounds like this is "fire and hire someone else", I dunno what the legality of that is in Europe?

The initial reports were staff were sacked and told agency staff would replace them and they should apply to those agencies. Fire/rehire outsourced.

 

[Plumdaff]

Get Caledonian MacBrayne to take over and insist on square sausage roll availability on all routes.

 

[MrSki]

This is what will happen under deregulation,

Another Brexit benefit which voters new what they were voting for.

 

[contadino]

This ^^

Boris needs to nationalise the fuck out of P&O , they are a major player in UK ferries , loads of islands around the UK depend on them, there aren't many other Ferry operators (Stenna?) . Surely British Ferry Services would please the Brexit lot ? Saving British jobs & that.

There won't be any nationalising. DP World also own Thames Gateway and Southampton docks. Pissing off dock owners when there are already empty shelves in supermarkets would be a step too far even for this government.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I thought you couldn't be made redundant if someone else is hired to replace you.

It’s automatic unfair dismissal. However, I understand that P&O are offering ‘enhanced redundancy’ packages to anyone who signs up for redundancy by the 31/3. Those that do so will be deemed to have acquiesced to redundancy and it’ll be voluntary rather than compulsory for legal purposes.

There will still the failure to consult covering all workers but that’s not going to be as valuable to laid off workers.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

The initial reports were staff were sacked and told agency staff would replace them and they should apply to those agencies. Fire/rehire outsourced.

Yes. This isn’t fire and rehire as those being laid off are not being offered the chance to stay in employment on inferior terms. They are being told to fuck off and sign up with an agency.

 

[teqniq]

If you read down the thread french staff not affected because of French employment laws, also interestingly someone says that RMT recommended it's members to vote for Brexit:

 

[Smokeandsteam]

If you read down the thread french staff not affected because of French employment laws, also interestingly someone says that RMT recommended it's members to vote for Brexit:

The RMT did support existing the EU. So what?

 

[The39thStep]

If you read down the thread french staff not affected because of French employment laws, also interestingly someone says that RMT recommended it's members to vote for Brexit:

" interestingly someone says that RMT recommended it's members to vote for Brexit:"

Oh so if they'd have recommended remain the P&O workers would have had French employment laws?

 

[teqniq]

Smokeandsteam Somewhat ironic no? Particularly as this could be see as a direct result of Brexit - ferry company loses a lot of money due to Brexit and also the parent company owns freeports in the UK. shape of things to come possibly?

The39thStep that's not what I am suggesting at all; simply that French employment laws are stronger.

E2a imagine also, stronger employment laws or not what would have been likely to happen if P&O had tried this on with the French?

 

[The39thStep]

This is what will happen under deregulation,

Another Brexit benefit which voters new what they were voting for.

'Solidarity with P&O workers but actually its your fault" ?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

@Smokeandsteam Somewhat ironic no? Particularly as this could be see as a direct result of Brexit

Sorry, what’s ironic? You do know the employment laws that apply in Britain today also applied before Brexit right? Plus, as has been discussed up thread what P&O have done is highly likely to be unlawful even under our piss weak laws

 

[BigTom]

Hows it aggravated? Unless they are causing damage or disrupting lawful activity and it sounds like P@O announced they weren't running the ferries today anyway so hard to make that stick. Trespass otherwise is civil (thats kind of the pint of the current C&P bill). There may be all sorts of weird Victorian offences relating to ships, a bit like all the odd Railway ones. I can see Kent and Humberside (and Welsh forces if they are affected?) senior plod telling any private security company to do one if they start 'detaining' people in these circumstances.

Besides, anyone who doesn't have crown servant / office holder cover (plod, immigration, screws etc) who starts using handcuffs on people is asking for trouble, in a kind of having to sell your car if not your house kind of way, if it all goes pear shaped - and I'd be really surprised if any insurance company would write a policy for a security guard using any kind of cuffs, especially rigid ones. There is loads of potential for permanently injuring or even killing people pretty quickly if you make even quite small errors.

If they are preventing P&O using their ferries, then they are disrupting lawful activity - I know services suspended today but that's not continuing is it? In any case P&O can say they need to move the ferries or even just clean them or something like that and that they can't access the ships as a result and that's disrupting lawful activity.

 

[Sue]

Smokeandsteam Somewhat ironic no? Particularly as this could be see as a direct result of Brexit - ferry company loses a lot of money due to Brexit and also the parent company owns freeports in the UK. shape of things to come possibly?

Could be seen as a direct result of Covid. Who knows?

The39thStep that's not what I am suggesting at all; simply that French employment laws are stronger.

E2a imagine also, stronger employment laws or not what would have been likely to happen if P&O had tried this on with the French?

France has long had much stronger employment laws than the UK. Of course there's an argument for improving employment laws here but not sure what your specific point is?

 

[MrSki]

'Solidarity with P&O workers but actually its your fault" ?

No. I feel very sorry for the P&O workers but deregulation allows P&O to do this. The French are still protected by EU Employment Laws.
Brexit was only really meant to benefit big business & not workers who have lost their Employment rights.

Yes it is the fault of those who voted for Brexit.

 

[Sue]

No. I feel very sorry for the P&O workers but deregulation allows P&O to do this. The French are still protected by EU Employment Laws.
Brexit was only really meant to benefit big business & not workers who have lost their Employment rights.

Yes it is the fault of those who voted for Brexit.

What?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Smokeandsteam Somewhat ironic no? Particularly as this could be see as a direct result of Brexit - ferry company loses a lot of money due to Brexit and also the parent company owns freeports in the UK. shape of things to come possibly?

Nowt to do with Pandemic.

Irish Ferries pulling the same stunt, that's Brexit an'all, them devious Paddies.

 

[MrSki]

What?

Before Brexit the UK had equivalent employment laws as the rest of the EU. After Brexit it is deregulation & those protections no longer apply.

 

[teqniq]

Could be seen as a direct result of Covid. Who knows?

France has long had much stronger employment laws than the UK. Of course there's an argument for improving employment laws here but not sure what your specific point is?

I am merely speculating and am quite happy to be proved wrong.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

'Solidarity with P&O workers but actually its your fault" ?

It's the politics of the sewer.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Before Brexit the UK had equivalent employment laws as the rest of the EU. After Brexit it is deregulation & those protections no longer apply.

Fire/rehire was legal in the UK pre-Brexit. So, go on...we're all ears here.

 

[kenny g]

Smokeandsteam Somewhat ironic no? Particularly as this could be see as a direct result of Brexit - ferry company loses a lot of money due to Brexit and also the parent company owns freeports in the UK. shape of things to come possibly?

The39thStep that's not what I am suggesting at all; simply that French employment laws are stronger.

E2a imagine also, stronger employment laws or not what would have been likely to happen if P&O had tried this on with the French?

One suggested cause may be the increase in direct ferries from Ireland to the continent thereby reducing the lorries using Dover Calais as part of the "land bridge" journey. One of the positives of Brexit in my view is that lorries aren't chuntering across England and Wales on the way to Ireland but for only a few quid more it makes sense to stick them on a boat.