Osama bin Laden killed by US forces in Pakistan

[dylans]

you demand "evidence" that cannot be provided

Yes it can. The fact that it isn't is suspicious

it's absence is fueling some anti-US feelings as if they didn't exist before.

It is

It's Grade 'A' Jazzzery!

Jazz has more in common with you than me. Neither of you care about evidence. I do

You're better than this.

So are you, which is why you should base your opinions on evidence not blind faith.

Here is a what if for you, just for conjecture. What if. What if Bin Laden's daughter is right and BL was executed after capture. Not an entirely unreasonable conjecture. After all the narrative has changed slightly in details over the past 24 hours or so. What if the reason they don't want to release the photos is because they show a double tap at the back of the head and a massive exit wound in the face. Do you think it is in the public interest to know that he was executed after capture? Ok you may shrug and say you don't care but I do. I don't care about Bin Laden but I do care about a possible political decisions to prevent a trial. I think the question of why, what political interest is served by deliberately not taking him alive and denying him the opportunity to spill the beans about ISI and CIA covert support in the past? What if he was executed? We will never know will we.

 

[dylans]

I find her take on it entirely plausible. You can bet that they guy who shot bin Laden, armed or unarmed, will never have to buy himself another drink in his lifetime. I can see a squadding shooting him just for the bragging rights.

I agree entirely. But I also think that a decision to execute him is a political question and one that people should know about.

 

[CyberRose]

I think the question of why, what political interest is served by deliberately not taking him alive and denying him the opportunity to spill the beans about ISI and CIA covert support in the past?

He would have been more dangerous in a US prison awaiting trial/execution than he is now, dead

 

[dylans]

Tell that to the Kurds!

Anyway, Dylans, do you sriously believe that all those who are currently refusing to believe bin Laden is dead, will accept that he is dead once they've seen a picture of him dead?

Many won't some will

 

[dylans]

He would have been more dangerous in a US prison awaiting trial/execution than he is now, dead

So this is what the west is reduced to now. The war on terror has dragged us into the realm of torture, extra judicial execution, assassination, violation of national sovereignty and violation of due process. We are so superior to the terrorists in every way yeah. I have no concern for him either way. I am concerned about political decisions to silence a voice that may expose the Wests complicity in creating the monster that became Al Qaeda. If a decision to avoid a trial was taken to avoid embarrassing revelations about the US arming, training and financing Al Qaeda and other terror groups then we should all be concerned.

 

[CyberRose]

So this is what the west is reduced to now. The war on terror has dragged us into the realm of torture, extra judicial execution, assassination, violation of national sovereignty and violation of due process. We are so superior to the terrorists in every way yeah

Now?!

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I don't care about Bin Laden but I do care about a possible political decisions to prevent a trial. I think the question of why, what political interest is served by deliberately not taking him alive and denying him the opportunity to spill the beans about ISI and CIA covert support in the past? What if he was executed? We will never know will we.

Would you want to be living in the city where that trial took place? I wouldn't.

The Obama Administration discovered with the Guantanamo prisoners that the mayors of American cities were unwilling to have such a trial take place in their backyard. Considering the already existing threats concerning the capture of bin Laden, you can hardly blame them.

 

[Corax]

Now?!

This.

 

[AverageJoe]

Why release the images now, when you can get someone to edit it all together into a nice DVD package and release it in September or just before some important vote. Imagine the money!!!! Every single one of the US population shelling out 20 bucks each for a memento, the US will be able to buy more shiny weapons..

(I am being cynical, but I bet *someone* in the Whitehouse saw the dollar potential)

 

[dylans]

Would you want to be living in the city where that trial took place? I wouldn't.

The Obama Administration discovered with the Guantanamo prisoners that the mayors of American cities were unwilling to have such a trial take place in their backyard. Considering the already existing threats concerning the capture of bin Laden, you can hardly blame them.

If I was a victim of the twin towers fuck yeah. I would want to look him in the eye and see justice done.

 

[Spymaster]

The war on terror has dragged us into the realm of torture, extra judicial execution, assassination, violation of national sovereignty and violation of due process.

No it hasn't. We've been doing that since time immemorial, so has every other government on the planet.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

If I was a victim of the twin towers fuck yeah. I would want to look him in the eye and see justice done.

Unfortunately, most of those 3,000 people are dead so they can't do that.

If it were me, I'd want to make sure no one else was harmed above all else.

 

[Spymaster]

Why release the images now, when you can get someone to edit it all together into a nice DVD package and release it in September or ......

....... for xmas?????

Dead cert Number 1.

Simon Cowell, take that!

 

[dylans]

No it hasn't. We've been doing that since time immemorial, so has every other government on the planet.

Indeed we have. What is important however is our response to it. Since when do we dismiss due process with a shrug of our shoulders. (and as you know i speak from personal experience)

If there was no option but to kill him then fine but if he was captured and then executed then I think it raises some important questions of why and I do not believe this "it was too dangerous to keep him" bullshit for a moment. If there was a political decision to not take him alive then it was because of what a trial would reveal about the US relationship to Islamist terror groups and that is something we all should be concerned about.

 

[OneStrike]

Bin Laden's 12 year old daughter says she saw her father killed. Problem is she also said he was executed after capture which probably doesn't put her on Obama's list of priority witnesses'

Did you believe Iraq had WMDs too?

I was trying to be objective, not supporting the word of 'the masters' as gospel. My natural assumption is that he was going to die regardless, probably under direct orders, possibly because the Seals had permission and it was a case of first one to get contact wins. It was not in US interests for him to be alive in their custody if the public were aware, much better that he was terminated or tortured in secrecy then terminated, eye-witnesses could rule out the latter.

 

[CyberRose]

If there was a political decision to not take him alive then it was because of what a trial would reveal about the US relationship to Islamist terror groups and that is something we all should be concerned about.

Got any evidence for that?!

Seriously tho, even if that were true, it wouldn't exactly do bin Laden's ideology any good to declare Islamists have been working with the CIA now would it?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I was trying to be objective, not supporting the word of 'the masters' as gospel. My natural assumption is that he was going to die regardless, probably under direct orders, possibly because the Seals had permission and it was a case of first one to get contact wins. It was not in US interests for him to be alive in their custody if the public were aware, much better that he was terminated or tortured in secrecy then terminated, eye-witnesses could rule out the latter.

^This.

There's just no up-side in taking him alive.

 

[dylans]

Got any evidence for that?!

Yup I have a photo but i'm not showing it to you

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Yup I have a photo but i'm not showing it to you

That's ok, it's been faked anyway.

 

[claphamboy]

A" we got him/no you didn't" debate is exactly what the US has created by refusing to provide evidence. It seems to me a perfectly reasonable request in all areas of life to ask for evidence of that which is claimed to be true. As of yet what evidence is there? None. Just the word of a US president and of course the world should take that at face value because US Presidents have never been known to lie have they?

You don't think that, at least, one of his daughters and one of his wives confirming he was killed to the Pakistan authorities is evidence?

FFS a large number in Pakistan reckon it was the US that masterminded the 7/7 bombings in London, do you seriously think releasing a photo is going to change their minds over if Bin Gone is dead?

The entire Pakistani population and probably most of the Arab world is not a "handful" by any stretch of the imagination

And you speak for all these people?

You're coming across as barking mad as Jazzz, get a fucking grip.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

You're coming across as barking mad as Jazzz, get a fucking grip.

Jazzz, at least, provides sources.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I find her take on it entirely plausible. You can bet that they guy who shot bin Laden, armed or unarmed, will never have to buy himself another drink in his lifetime. I can see a squadding shooting him just for the bragging rights.

Either that or he was a special forces soldier who did what he is trained to do. i.e. Kill anyone who fails to show 100% compliance.



Whether they had a kill the cunt at all costs or whatever policy is irrelevant, a dozen or so special forces landing in your gaff at night is gonna see you brown bread unless you're on the floor, static with your hand firmly behind your head. I can't imagine anyone doing that when they have family in the compound. tap, tap.

imo a trial would have been better. Some folk say that his evidence would be embarrassing, but we're already aware of the close relationship between OBL and the CIA. Other trials of senior Al Qaeda bods have just seen some loon ranting in a court room with no one paying much attention, then said loon spending the rest of forever in ADX Florence. Personally I feel that letting the cunt rot in a concrete tomb would be far worse than death.

 

[Spymaster]

Since when do we dismiss due process with a shrug of our shoulders.

Right, now this is more interesting than debating whether or not evidence of his death should be provided.

There are many reasons why assassination may seem favourable to due process following capture. As you point out, reluctance to risk revealing uncomfortable truths or questions of state/s security may be one, another, perhaps more likely, is that to capture and try someone like OBL risks creating an endless and costly cause celebre, which may bolster the cause of the vanquished.

Is it right? I'm not sure, but I don't think it's an obvious "no", as I'm sure you do!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He has to be dead because to announce that he is dead when he is not would be too ridiculously stupid a thing to do. I'm inclined to agree that if Pakistan is such a hot bed of misinformation trying to prove he's dead to them is probably not ever going to work anyway

 

[Gingerman]

He has to be dead because to announce that he is dead when he is not would be too ridiculously stupid a thing to do. I'm inclined to agree that if Pakistan is such a hot bed of misinformation trying to prove he's dead to them is probably not ever going to work anyway

Exactly,if Osama pops up in the next few weeks in one of his home movies,Obama will be toast

 

[dylans]

You don't think that, at least, one of his daughters and one of his wives confirming he was killed to the Pakistan authorities is evidence?

Yes I do. She says he was executed after capture. Do you think that fact is unimportant? Or do you wish to believe half her story and reject the part that doesn't fit the narrative?

Look the fact is this narrative is being spun and it is being changed and the refusal to release a single scrap of evidence of what actually happened is allowiing the Obama administration to spin the truth of events. This is the original narrative put forward by John Brennan. It was repeated without question in the worlds press.

"

Thinking about that from a visual perspective, here is bin Laden, who has been calling for these attacks, living in this million dollar-plus compound, living in an area that is far removed from the front, hiding behind women who were put in front of him as a shield," Brennan told the world from the White House podium Monday. "I think it really just speaks to just how false his narrative has been over the years.There was a firefight and the al-Qaeda leader was "killed in that firefight," Brennan said. There was a woman who was used "to shield bin Laden from the incoming fire." The woman killed in the raid was bin Laden's wife, Brennan said: "She was positioned in a way that indicated that she was being used as a shield."

And bin Laden was killed because he resisted capture. "If we had the opportunity to take him alive, we would have done that," Brennan told reporters at the briefing.

"Looking at what bin Laden was doing hiding there while he's putting other people out there to carry out attacks again just speaks to, I think, the nature of the individual he was," Brennan said.

We now know this story is bullshit. Bin Laden was completely unarmed. The "million dollar mansion" was a decrepid mouldy run down house, the woman killed wasn't his wife and not only was he not hiding behind her, she was in an entirely different room. Now it appears he may have been executed after capture.

In your haste to believe the entire narrative of the Obama administration you are putting to one side your critical faculties and neglecting to ask perfectly reasonable questions that are necessary to separate propaganda from truth. The refusal to provide evidence of the events or the order of the events allows the administration to spin a narrative that may not be the truth. you are allowing him to.

 

[elbows]

So this is what the west is reduced to now. The war on terror has dragged us into the realm of torture, extra judicial execution, assassination, violation of national sovereignty and violation of due process. We are so superior to the terrorists in every way yeah.

Yeah, throw in justification for wars, draconian legislation at home, and subsidies for the military industrial complex and its spooky side, and thats what the war on terror is all about. And that was clear from pretty early on. I seem to remember that in the immediate aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, and for probably several years afterwards, I was exceedingly fearful of how much momentum the 'war on terror' had and just how far a lot of these horrific developments could be pushed. What would a vengeful, shellshocked America do in retaliation? The reality has been horrific enough, though not quite as bad as my worst fears. But thats easy for me to say because the war on terror hasnt killed or tortured me.

As for reasons why the USA would want bin Laden dead rather than to stand trial, the potential reasons are numerous, going way beyond the one you suggested. Given that one of bin Ladens main capabilities was on the propaganda front, they were not about to give him a platform. And if they did it in private then they would drown in all the drool that would be said by the masses and press who would go nutty trying to figure out what was happening behind closed doors. All manner of things would be gone over in fine detail, when they would rather put them to rest. The process itself would be scrutinised, and if they gave him the death penalty then that would be a whole other sideshow that they would probably be keen to avoid for a number of reasons. Given these things and quite a number of other reasons, and the fact that both domestic and international stuff could be adversely affected if this was done wrong, its such a safer option to just kill him. And if for a moment we take the war on terror at face value, there is also a deterrent aspect to this, they want to send a message. And the message was always likely to be 'we will not hesitate to kill people like bin Laden'.

It sounds very much like it would have been fairly easy to take him alive if they had wanted to, but they didnt, and I dont think the world is really too shocked about this at all.

I am concerned about political decisions to silence a voice that may expose the Wests complicity in creating the monster that became Al Qaeda. If a decision to avoid a trial was taken to avoid embarrassing revelations about the US arming, training and financing Al Qaeda and other terror groups then we should all be concerned.

Why should I be concerned? Of course they are not going to want to go over that particular part of history, just as they are not presently keen to remind everyone that some decades ago the USA was rather smug about Russia falling into an Afghan quagmire, and then proceeded to make much the same mistake themselves. Although hard facts are somewhat lacking and would always be helpful, I dont really feel like I need to hear any more about that particular flavour of terrorism being funded by the USA back in the day. What Im more concerned about is how they behave on this front going forwards, and who knows how long it may take for any details of such things. There is a certain futility to playing a game of thinking we know what they are covering up an demanding to know more, when tomorrows issues will likely arise as a reuslt of other stuff - unknown unknowns to use the Rumsfeld terminology.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

If you only refuse to release details which you've lied about, it quickly becomes obvious that you only refuse to release details which you've lied about.

The US government (and of course everyone else) routinely refuses to release information which it has and which it has no reason not to release, simply to retain general control over information. There are plenty of cases of states fighting (bureaucratically) for ages against FOI requests simply because they want to be the gatekeepers. They may well have umpteen easily-identifiable photos of bin Laden's face but to release them because people demand they do sets a very bad precedent. To only cover up lies would be counter-productive.

 

[Spymaster]

If a decision to avoid a trial was taken to avoid embarrassing revelations about the US arming, training and financing Al Qaeda and other terror groups then we should all be concerned.

Yes. And quite obviously this is where all the upcoming conspiraloonery is going to be focused. Unfortunately I fail to see that the US can provide any evidence to prevent this.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Exactly,if Osama pops up in the next few weeks in one of his home movies,Obama will be toast

I wouldn't be suprised if one more popped up. He might have had one in the can, just in case.