Osama bin Laden killed by US forces in Pakistan

[Spymaster]

yeah, your right. who cares about silly things like evidence anyway. Let's forget the libraries of evidence for evolution. Just take the word of your biology teacher as given. The creationist doubters will never stop denying it anyway. What's the point?

Silly example ok. but it just strikes me as absolutely bizarre that people think providing zero evidence for a claim as massive as this is somehow acceptable. (in fact when is providing zero evidence for anything ever acceptable). I repeat, as of this moment, not a single scrap of evidence has been provided except the word of the President.

You are missing the point entirely, Dylans.

There is no evidence that will convince the willfully unconvinceable.

Anything that the US could produce will be refuted by some people.

So fuck 'em.

Let them believe that Osama is still happily plotting away. Let them show that this is the case.

If he's not dead or captured, they'll stick him on TV somewhere soon enough, and achieve their biggest anti-America coup since 9/11.

Can't wait!

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

A bit rich seeing that earlier in this thread you practically accused me of racism for suggesting that conspiracy theories flourish in Pakistan then flouncing off and running away when I posted reams of evidence that this is in fact an endemic sociological phenomenon there.

I was returning the favor from an earlier post of yours. This is a continual habit with you.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

You are missing the point entirely, Dylans.

He is missing the point. He assumes that the US government cares what he thinks. They don't have to try to convince him because they don't care what he thinks (or what anyone other than a voter thinks).

 

[dylans]

I was returning the favor from an earlier post of yours. This is a continual habit with you.

You were wrong though weren't you? The fact entire papers have been written about the phenomenon of conspiracy theories in Pakistan. It has been described as a national sport. And the refusal to provide a scrap of evidence for the US claims has just fed it

 

[CyberRose]

 

[Corax]

Autopsy photos and DNA evidence

Photos? They've been 'shopped.

DNA evidence? They're lying.

You could put the body on public display and people would say it was a waxwork, or a surgically altered corpse of someone else.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

I'm getting bored of this anyone else is? At least we got the FP AV voting tomorrow...

 

[Bernie Gunther]

He is missing the point. He assumes that the US government cares what he thinks. They don't have to try to convince him because they don't care what he thinks (or what anyone other than a voter thinks).

Quite. In fact, I think the way Obama's people are handling this makes a lot more sense if you take on board that what happens in Pakistan matters far less to them than being able to game the Republicans into selecting say Trump/Palin on a 'my moose told me that the president is an alien' ticket in the primaries.

I suspect that they're actually *encouraging* conspiracies for machiavellian reasons connected with the cognitive-dissonance-tortured psyches of the frothing lunatics on the Republican right and don't give a stuff if they accidently cause a meltdown in Pakistan in the process.

 

[dylans]

You are missing the point entirely, Dylans.

No I'm not. Sure some people will be convinced by nothing. There are also very reasonable people (like me) who believe that providing evidence is always a good thing. There are actions that the US government can carry out that can feed disbelief and public alienation and there are actions that can convince and strengthen credibility. One of those ways is this little thing called providing evidence and it is insane for a US government already suffering from a massive credibility problem in large parts of the world to act in a way that further increases and exacerbates that lack of creditability and providing absolutely zero evidence does just that.

 

[Spymaster]

You were wrong though weren't you? The fact entire papers have been written about the phenomenon of conspiracy theories in Pakistan. It has been described as a national sport. And the refusal to provide a scrap of evidence for the US claims has just fed it

As would providing the 'evidence'!

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Except they know the truth.

 

[audiotech]

Obama on '60 Minutes':

STEVE KROFT: Did you see the pictures?

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Yes.

KROFT: What was your reaction when you saw them?

OBAMA: It was him.

KROFT: Why haven't you released them?

OBAMA: You know, we discussed this internally. Keep in mind that we are absolutely certain this was him. We've done DNA sampling and testing. And so there is no doubt that we killed Osama bin Laden. It is important for us to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head are not floating around as an incitement to additional violence. As a propaganda tool. You know, that's not who we are. You know, we don't trot out this stuff as trophies. You know, the fact of the matter is this was somebody who was deserving of the justice that he received. And I think-- Americans and people around the world are glad that he's gone. But we don't need to spike the football. And I think that given the graphic nature of these photos, it would create some national security risk. And I've discussed this with Bob Gates and Hillary Clinton and my intelligence teams and they all agree.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/04/60minutes/main20059768.shtml

 

[Spymaster]

No I'm not. Sure some people will be convinced by nothing. There are also very reasonable people (like me) who believe that providing evidence is always a good thing. There are actions that the US government can carry out that can feed disbelief and public alienation and there are actions that can convince and strengthen credibility. One of those ways is this little thing called providing evidence and it is insane for a US government already suffering from a massive credibility problem in large parts of the world to act in a way that further increases and exacerbates that lack of creditability and providing absolutely zero evidence does just that.

Absolute bollocks.

Once again; there is no evidence that they can provide that won't be refuted.

The best evidence of Ossie's death or capture, is in the lack of credible evidence of his continued existence.

I believe the US on this one.

So do you!

 

[Corax]

I think it'll be revealed that he survived the attack at the start of Season Four.

 

[paolo]

I think it'll be revealed that he survived the attack at the start of Season Four.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I suspect that they're actually *encouraging* conspiracies for machiavellian reasons connected with the cognitive-dissonance-tortured psyches of the frothing lunatics on the Republican right and don't give a stuff if they accidently cause a meltdown in Pakistan in the process.

There's so many reasons Pakistan might melt down that this little blip is unlikely to cause it.

 

[CyberRose]

I think it'll be revealed that he survived the attack at the start of Season Four.

Nah I think convention dictates that will be revealed in the middle of the season

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

No I'm not. Sure some people will be convinced by nothing. There are also very reasonable people (like me) who believe that providing evidence is always a good thing. There are actions that the US government can carry out that can feed disbelief and public alienation and there are actions that can convince and strengthen credibility. One of those ways is this little thing called providing evidence and it is insane for a US government already suffering from a massive credibility problem in large parts of the world to act in a way that further increases and exacerbates that lack of creditability and providing absolutely zero evidence does just that.

You're still missing the point. This is the opinion the Obama Administration cares about:

http://world-news.newsvine.com/_new...ot-to-release-death-photos-of-osama-bin-laden

 

[Spymaster]

You're still missing the point. This is the opinion the Obama Administration cares about:

http://world-news.newsvine.com/_new...ot-to-release-death-photos-of-osama-bin-laden

Quite.

The need to provide "evidence" to Dylans, a handful of Pakistani conspiracy theorists, and Jazzz, comes somewhere between 'unimportant' and 'absolutely fucking unimportant'!

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I still think provoking the wingnut right into extreme conspiraloon views (they're prone to that kind of thinking anyway) and hence pushing untenable positions onto potential Republican candidates ahead of the primaries is a plausible objective.

 

[paolo]

I still think provoking the wingnut right into extreme conspiraloon views (they're pretty close already) and hence pushing untenable positions onto potential Republican candidates ahead of the primaries is a plausible objective.

Or a happy side-benefit.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

If they decide in the future that there's an advantage to releasing them they can always leak them later.

 

[dylans]

Quite.

The need to provide "evidence" to Dylans, a handful of Pakistani conspiracy theorists, and Jazzz, comes somewhere between 'unimportant' and 'absolutely fucking unimportant'!

The entire Pakistani population and probably most of the Arab world is not a "handful" by any stretch of the imagination

 

[OneStrike]

Whats happened to the others in the compound? I suppose his wife and other surviving witnesses might be able to sway some doubters if they were allowed to talk to the media?

 

[Clair De Lune]

So nobody buying the story that he has been dead since 2001 then?

 

[dylans]

Whats happened to the others in the compound? I suppose his wife and other surviving witnesses might be able to sway some doubters if they were allowed to talk to the media?

Bin Laden's 12 year old daughter says she saw her father killed. Problem is she also said he was executed after capture which probably doesn't put her on Obama's list of reliable witnesses.

Which raises another point. Not only should the photos be released but the entire cam footage of the assault. The soldiers carry cams on their helmets right? Which means footage exists of the entire operation. Evidence may not be important to some people here but I think accurate footage of events will also dispell the contradictory story being put out by the Obama administration. "He was armed" " He wasn't armed" He went for a gun" "He hid behind a woman" A woman attacked the troops etc. In particular it will show whether he was shot after capture or not. frankly i find this blind desire to believe every word of the Obama administration quite disquieting. Did you believe Iraq had WMDs too?

 

[paolo]

I'm fairly sure someone from the Whitehouse/CIA has already declared that the killing "wasn't captured on video".

 

[Spymaster]

The entire Pakistani population and probably most of the Arab world is not a "handful" by any stretch of the imagination

"The entire Pakistani population" is over-egging a rapidly deflating pudding .... but so what?

The people that want to believe that OBL is alive will do so, regardless of what the US says or produces, be that "independently verified" DNA evidence, or "we promise these are real" mashed-head photos.

Your anti-Americanism is blinding your reason.

Instead of concluding that the US must be beyond all doubt that they got the man, because to not have, would risk handing AQ the coup of the century, you demand "evidence" that cannot be provided, and decide that it's absence is fueling some anti-US feelings as if they didn't exist before.

It's Grade 'A' Jazzzery!

You're better than this.

 

[CyberRose]

Did you believe Iraq had WMDs too?

Tell that to the Kurds!

Anyway, Dylans, do you sriously believe that all those who are currently refusing to believe bin Laden is dead, will accept that he is dead once they've seen a picture of him dead?

 

[Spymaster]

Bin Laden's 12 year old daughter says she saw her father killed. Problem is she also said he was executed after capture which probably doesn't put her on Obama's list of reliable witnesses.

Which raises another point. Not only should the photos be released but the entire cam footage of the assault. The soldiers carry cams on their helmets right? Which means footage exists of the entire operation. Evidence may not be important to some people here but I think accurate footage of events will also dispell the contradictory story being put out by the Obama administration. "He was armed" " He wasn't armed" He went for a gun" "He hid behind a woman" A woman attacked the troops etc. In particular it will show whether he was shot after capture or not. frankly i find this blind desire to believe every word of the Obama administration quite disquieting.

Once again, all highly fakeable.

He wasn't armed, they've said that. He was almost certainly executed (or captured and is currently having his nuts toasted in Cuba), we all know that.

No government is going to admit to either. Get over it!

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Bin Laden's 12 year old daughter says she saw her father killed. Problem is she also said he was executed after capture which probably doesn't put her on Obama's list of reliable witnesses.

I find her take on it entirely plausible. You can bet that they guy who shot bin Laden, armed or unarmed, will never have to buy himself another drink in his lifetime. I can see a squadding shooting him just for the bragging rights.