Olympic Boxing Thread

[SpookyFrank]

Some bitterness. Not sure anyone will agree with them about the Katie Taylor fight.

Ah yes, that champion of fair play and rigged elections, Vladimir Putin

e2a: None of those Russian fighters lost to British fighters, so I'm not sure what his point is. Is he suggesting the presence of a largely British crowd swayed the judges in favour of Kazakhstan?

Mind you, Kazakhstan are doing pretty well in the medal table...

 

[Numbers]

Gold for Anthony Joshua - get in there son

 

[yardbird]

Well done Joshua!

 

[Prince Bert]

Good for him. I thought the Italian was crap and his stamina wasn't even good enough for 3 rounds - same in his last fight. But that kind of quality is not unusual for the super heavies. Klitschko's bout in 1996 was not spectacular. Maybe this guy is the next Audley Harrison. I noticed the BBC commentator went through a list of all the "luminaries" (gold medallists of the past) but left out poor old Audley.

 

[QueenOfGoths]

Italians have lodged a protest!

 

[Gingerman]

Good for him. I thought the Italian was crap and his stamina wasn't even good enough for 3 rounds - same in his last fight. But that kind of quality is not unusual for the super heavies. Klitschko's bout in 1996 was not spectacular. Maybe this guy is the next Audley Harrison. I noticed the BBC commentator went through a list of all the "luminaries" (gold medallists of the past) but left out poor old Audley.

Poor aul Fraudley,big things were expected from him when he won gold in Sydney in 2000,sadly for him he's ended up becoming something of a joke figure.Be interested to see how Joshua will fare.

 

[Prince Bert]

Italians have lodged a protest!

It doesn't surprise me. It was a draw and I thought it was very close. But countback is unfair by its nature. The italian did throw a lot of punches in the first round, but they were all falling short. He was wasting his own energy really. When Joshua threw punches and didn't connect I'm sure some of the judges were more likely to press for a scoring shot.

The decision was that close that I could see it being overturned, but I doubt that will ever happen. Cammarelle ruined it for himself by looking tired and unable to defend himself at times. I don't think countback decisions with fighters looking as tired and sloppy as that are so likely to be overturned.

 

[Numbers]

Decision upheld.

 

[QueenOfGoths]

It doesn't surprise me. It was a draw and I thought it was very close. But countback is unfair by its nature. The italian did throw a lot of punches in the first round, but they were all falling short. He was wasting his own energy really. When Joshua threw punches and didn't connect I'm sure some of the judges were more likely to press for a scoring shot.

The decision was that close that I could see it being overturned, but I doubt that will ever happen. Cammarelle ruined it for himself by looking tired and unable to defend himself at times. I don't think countback decisions with fighters looking as tired and sloppy as that are so likely to be overturned.

Aye it seemed a close fight, can't blame 'em for protesting.

 

[Prince Bert]

Poor aul Fraudley,big things were expected from him when he won gold in Sydney in 2000,sadly for him he's ended up becoming something of a joke figure.Be interested to see how Joshua will fare.

If he is sensible he will stay amateur. There is something about him that tells me he will panick too much in the pro game if he is under attack. At 22 he has all the time he needs I suppose. Audley Harrison was over 30 when he won gold I think.

 

[Numbers]

If he is sensible he will stay amateur. There is something about him that tells me he will panick too much in the pro game if he is under attack. At 22 he has all the time he needs I suppose. Audley Harrison was over 30 when he won gold I think.

Soz, the bold bit made me giggle. Boxing is about being under attack.

If he turns pro, and I think he will with Matchroom (Eddy Hearn) he has plenty of time to learn the ropes, even if he has the odd loss, as long as he's not built up too big as if he's the next big thing like Aurdrey was, he'll be fine. Not sure if he'll go on to World level, but he can make a decent living for himself.

 

[Prince Bert]

Soz, the bold bit made me giggle. Boxing is about being under attack.

My point was about panicking or remaining calm. At the moment he doesn't seem to think clearly when he has been caught or is under pressure, which you need in the pro game.

Incidentally the same thing happened to Freddie Evans, but it was far worse. He was outclassed, but sometimes froze when under pressure meaning he was taking shots when he should have relaxed and used his feet to move away.

It's a brutal game when you panick. Trust me I don't need lessons. I have done my share of sparring with guys a lot better than me.

As for your point about making a living. Big guys who are promoted right can make money for terrible fights. Look at Jameel McCline getting $1,000,000 for quitting on his stool against Vladimir Klitschko in 2002. McCline started boxing in his twenties I believe.

 

[Corax]

Good for him. I thought the Italian was crap and his stamina wasn't even good enough for 3 rounds - same in his last fight. But that kind of quality is not unusual for the super heavies. Klitschko's bout in 1996 was not spectacular. Maybe this guy is the next Audley Harrison. I noticed the BBC commentator went through a list of all the "luminaries" (gold medallists of the past) but left out poor old Audley.

Nah, they definitely included him a couple of times. I noticed because in a list of Lennox Lewis, Klitschko and Audley, I kinda thought he stuck out like a sore thumb.

Really pleased to see Joshua pick up gold. He's going to improve a lot from here - he's been boxing less than 4 years. He's looked a lot more tidy in the non-Olympic bouts I've seen of his though. Maybe that's been down to the opposition, or maybe the nerves. I really like the look of him - huge amounts of power, and very mobile for his size when he remembers to keep moving. He's got a very bright future IMO - depending on the vagaries of a patently corrupt professional sport.

If anything though, I was more impressed by Campbell. Smart boxer, quick hands, good movement. Nice combination to have.

Not watched Adams yet. Gonna go see her final now.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Joshua will almost definitely go pro. He's a heavyweight (in terms of pro divisions) and that means that there's money to be made in a way that there isn't for a lot of smaller boxers. The Harrison experience will do his early earning potential no favours, but Olympic superheavyweight Gold is still a very nice starting point for a pro.

He didn't impress me as a boxer. He got a lucky decision in the final, which I think the Italian shaded, although it was too close to really be called a robbery. Earlier in the competition, Savon boxed the ears off him before getting mugged by the judges. That said though, it isn't as if the pro ranks are exactly stuffed with talented heavyweights once you get past the Klitschkos who aren't going to be around forever. So being big and strong and possessed of decent rudiments might actually be enough to go a long way, particularly if he continues to learn. If I were his manager, I'd have him packed off to the Kronk tomorrow to learn to jab like Wladimir.

Campbell on the other hand is genuinely impressive as a boxer and is, at least as far as I'm concerned, a much more exciting prospect. That's a guy who can box already and who has the talent to get even better. Of the other British medalists, despite a poor performance in the final, Evans looked very good in the earlier rounds and would be well worth watching out for as a pro. And the guy who beat him up in the final won the Val Barker prize, so there's really no shame in that. Ogogo may have been the worst medalist in the whole boxing competition and if he goes pro I think he's a nasty ko waiting to happen.

 

[Prince Bert]

He didn't impress me as a boxer. He got a lucky decision in the final, which I think the Italian shaded, although it was too close to really be called a robbery. Earlier in the competition, Savon boxed the ears off him before getting mugged by the judges. That said though, it isn't as if the pro ranks are exactly stuffed with talented heavyweights once you get past the Klitschkos who aren't going to be around forever. So being big and strong and possessed of decent rudiments might actually be enough to go a long way, particularly if he continues to learn. If I were his manager, I'd have him packed off to the Kronk tomorrow to learn to jab like Wladimir.

Fair play to you for saying the stuff I am reluctant to say. I just didn't see any of his other fights so can't be sure, but his jab didn't seem that good to me either. I just didn't see anything that impressed me that much. The issue is if a guy isn't showing that ability at 22 there is no guarantee he will ever show it, or be consistent with it. Audley Harrison at least showed flashes of talent, but was never consistent.

I guess it's a strange situation to have a guy win gold who is basically still learning what I would call the basics since I consider a snappy jab to be a basic thing. Yeah, he will still make money as a heavyweight as some big guys just need to get a padded record and then show up for a big fight. I don't know how he compares to the other big guys like Tyson Furey or David Price. I'm just not excited by many of these guys I guess. I've been watching heavyweight boxing too long.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Of the Irish lot, Nevin is the cream of the crop and has the kind of slickness and movement which is vanishingly rare amongst Irish or British boxers. He could be a very successful pro, if he is brought along well. Conlon is very promising, but he's also a kid and should certainly stay in the ams for the moment. Barnes is a great little fighter, and should have won Gold, but he's so small that it's difficult to see how he could carve out a pro career given that there's so little interest in fighters of his weight. Nolan has a completely amateur style (and an ugly one at that) and would make a terrible pro. I would pay money not to watch him. O'Neill has talent, but I think he's likely to stay in the ams.

Generally, the best boxers of the whole (men's) competion in my view were: Lomachenko, the Ukrainian lightweight, and Ramirez Carrazana, the Cuban flyweight. Unfortunately, we won't be seeing either of them in the pro ranks any time soon, as Lomachenko has signed up to the AIBA's semi-pro world series thing and the Cuban is, well, a Cuban. After those two, there was a very high quality bunch it's hard to distinguish between, not all of whom won gold: Usyk, Campbell, Sapiyev, Nevin, Iglesias, Berinchyk and Savon all impressed me a great deal.

As usual, the quality of the judging was a lot lower than the quality of the boxing.

 

[Prince Bert]

Lomachenko looked brilliant, particularly all the body shots. Nevin didn't impress me against Campbell. I can't remember the fight, but his upper body movement was strange - I'm sure he was almost leaning back at times and getting caught as a result. Maybe that is why he looked pissed off with himself for getting a silver, but he looked outclassed by Campbell. Again, I only seen him in one fight so it is difficult to get a good idea.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Fair play to you for saying the stuff I am reluctant to say. I just didn't see any of his other fights so can't be sure, but his jab didn't seem that good to me either. I just didn't see anything that impressed me that much. The issue is if a guy isn't showing that ability at 22 there is no guarantee he will ever show it, or be consistent with it. Audley Harrison at least showed flashes of talent, but was never consistent.

I guess it's a strange situation to have a guy win gold who is basically still learning what I would call the basics since I consider a snappy jab to be a basic thing. Yeah, he will still make money as a heavyweight as some big guys just need to get a padded record and then show up for a big fight. I don't know how he compares to the other big guys like Tyson Furey or David Price. I'm just not excited by many of these guys I guess. I've been watching heavyweight boxing too long.

The only two boxers amongst the heavies and superheavies who genuinely impressed me were Usyk and Savon and we only got three rounds of Savon. They were by far the shallowest divisions.

But in Joshua's favour, he does have the giant size and strength which seem to be nearly compulsory in the modern heavies, and he has gone a long way for someone who was a late starter. If he was this raw after ten years in the ams, I'd write him off, but after just four, I wouldn't. I would certainly rather be promoting him than Fury. But if he's going to go pro, he needs world class training and in particular he needs to have the kind of trainer who can teach him to use his physical advantages. If you have that kind of reach, your jab should be the most important weapon.

If he learns how to jab well and utilise his size, he could eventually be a player on the (not exactly talent-abundant) world stage. If he doesn't, well there's money to be made on the domestic and European circuits as quite a number of not particularly gifted British heavies have shown.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Lomachenko looked brilliant, particularly all the body shots. Nevin didn't impress me against Campbell. I can't remember the fight, but his upper body movement was strange - I'm sure he was almost leaning back at times and getting caught as a result. Maybe that is why he looked pissed off with himself for getting a silver, but he looked outclassed by Campbell. Again, I only seen him in one fight so it is difficult to get a good idea.

Nevin didn't do particularly well in the final, but he's certainly not out classed by Campbell. You should watch his semi against Alvarez, who is the world champion and was the hot favourite for Gold, if you want to see what he can do. That was one of the fights of the Olympics.

 

[Prince Bert]

But if he's going to go pro, he needs world class training and in particular he needs to have the kind of trainer who can teach him to use his physical advantages. If you have that kind of reach, your jab should be the most important weapon.

If he learns how to jab well and utilise his size, he could eventually be a player on the (not exactly talent-abundant) world stage.

I was looking on some of the boxing forums and some people were saying he just doesn't have handspeed and they don't think he will develop it. I guess nerves can stop you pulling your punches back, and putting less power in your shots, but a lack of handspeed would be worrying for a tall big gue=y. Yep, always money to be made in Europe - particularly Germany.

Maybe the fact Campbell is a southpaw complicated matters for Nevin. I definitely didn't see the Nevin you saw - not from that fight.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I was looking on some of the boxing forums and some people were saying he just doesn't have handspeed and they don't think he will develop it. I guess nerves can stop you pulling your punches back, and putting less power in your shots, but a lack of handspeed would be worrying for a tall big gue=y. Yep, always money to be made in Europe - particularly Germany

You can't really teach hand speed, that's true. But although handspeed is always important, it's less important for tall heavyweights than for most other fighters, given that they aren't exactly trying to hit guys with superb movement. He isn't going to be trying to hit guys who can move like Pernell Whitaker after all. And hand speed can be compensated for by some degree by improved timing.

Maybe the fact Campbell is a southpaw complicated matters for Nevin. I definitely didn't see the Nevin you saw - not from that fight.

Watch Nevins other fights in this tournament, particularly the Alvarez one. The Campbell fight was his sub-par performance. The southpaw issue may not have helped, but I suspect that a bigger problem was simply falling behind against a very talented opponent and then having to chase the fight, which is extremely bad news for a natural counterpuncher in a three round fight.

 

[dtb]

Ramirez (Cuba) boxing as flyweight was by far the most impressive boxer of the tournament, absolutely sublime skills

 

[JimW]

Ramirez (Cuba) boxing as flyweight was by far the most impressive boxer of the tournament, absolutely sublime skills

Just watched his final - liked the Mongolian lad a lot and he pushed him hard but the Cuban boy just went up a notch midway through the final round. Liked his defence too.

ETA: Commentator mentioning previous double gold winners after Lomachenko and named Harry Mallin, British bloke who was the first to do it. Looked it up and it's quite a tale including getting bitten by his French opponent http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/ma/harry-mallin-1.html

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Just watched his final - liked the Mongolian lad a lot and he pushed him hard but the Cuban boy just went up a notch midway through the final round. Liked his defence too.

All of his fights were great to watch. His style is really unusual for an amateur too. He likes to stand right in the pocket and rely on his defence, letting the other guy throw, confident in his ability to block or slip what's coming at him, waiting for an opening. Then suddenly he'd put a beautiful punch right through his opponents guard, or, just as often, unload a great combination. You have to have supreme confidence to even think of fighting like that. And you have to have remarkable defence, timing and accuracy to pull it off.

He's a teenager. He was unseeded, so he had a longer and tougher route. And he also beat some highly touted fighters in a very strong division along the way. He'd make a fantastic pro. Pity we're unlikely to see him on TV much for another four years.

 

[rekil]

Impeccable manners too!

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Apparently Joshua has said he's staying amateur at least until Rio!

I have to say I'm a bit surprised by that. I'd have thought he'd be better off cashing in now. Even if he improves enough to actually be the best at Rio, any amateur tournament always has a bit of a lottery element to it and a loss there would reduce his value.

That said, he does at least have the opportunity to spend four years improving his skills in an environment where a loss or two outside the Olympics doesn't matter too much and he'll be matched against much more skilled opponents then he'd face in his first dozen fights as a pro. Plus, with the ams moving back to a pro style scoring system, he could learn a pro style more easily there than he could before London.

 

[Prince Bert]

Smart decision. If he seriously wants to talk of dominating the heavies he needs the experience. Actually thinking about this last night Vladimir Klitschko had only been boxing 6 years when he won the gold medal. Who knows how much Joshua will improve.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Smart decision. If he seriously wants to talk of dominating the heavies he needs the experience. Actually thinking about this last night Vladimir Klitschko had only been boxing 6 years when he won the gold medal. Who knows how much Joshua will improve.

I'm not sure that it's smart in financial terms, at the very least it's a gamble. But in terms of improving as a boxer, I agree that it's wise. At the very peak of the amateur version he'll get a much better level of competition than he would as a valuable prospect in the pro sport. No promoter would put substantial money behind a gold medalist and then let him anywhere near a live opponent for quite a while, unless that medalist is old to start with or outrageously accomplished (Rigondeaux). That's not a negative comment on Joshua. It's a negative comment about the way pro boxing works.