The simple fact is that we do. Albeit a (very) imperfect one.
(And, in any event, your brilliant, inspired alternative is ...
)
NUS national protest against the cuts 10.11.10 [London]
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(And, in any event, your brilliant, inspired alternative is ...
)
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i've not got the calculator out, but 11% would be about the amount i pay for my pension contributions. as for the restrictions on your private life associated with being a police officer, i suppose you mean that the number of people who want anything to do with you dwindles considerably when you become a cop.
It's the virtual reality effect. They're students. They only think in terms of computer games ...
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
So fucking what? As has been pointed out, again and again, very few of the people on here are labour party members. Even if they are, so what? It doesn't make their arguments invalid. And as much as I dislike the LP, it at least has a far wider range of views in the party than a bunch of cultists who worship the ground that Nick Clegg walks on so much that they'll happily argue that black is white and white is black. Your party and the majority of its members would agree that 2+2=5 if Nick Clegg said so.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
And your brilliant, inspired alternative is ...
Worker's councils, syndicalism, community politics, i.e. some form of direct democracy.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
and real accountability and transparency, because that is the only way ordinary people will feel that it belongs to them, and feel that strongly enough to get involved
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
yup, that as well!
I can't remember who (Paul Merton on Have I got News for You???) but some comedian pointed out the other day that it wasn't so much a Coalition as a hostage-situation, swith the hostage being used as a human shield ...
That would be an adaption of we have (i.e. correcting the imperfections that our, er, democracy has to make it a better democracy). Which, er, supports my point that we do have a democracy, albeit a (very) imperfect one.
If we didn't you'd need to invent a whole new system, not just knock the edges off this one.
(This is yet another example of hyperbole being self-defeating ... people know we do live in a democracy by any sensible standard and so immediately ignore any argument which starts by telling them that we don't. If you want to change things you need to engage people. If you want to engage them you need to be honest and straightforward, and not exaggerate your case with hyperbole.)
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
No, it would be completely different.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
i think we'll have to agree to differ on opur definitions of the concept of 'democracy', as I would have described our system as an 'elective dictatorship', pace Hailsham.The simple fact is that we do. Albeit a (very) imperfect one.
(And, in any event, your brilliant, inspired alternative is ...
I weould also argue that lousy turnout, time after time, and near-complete popular disenchasntment with the political classes at least suggets the British people are warming to my point of view.
as for my alternatives - optimally, a globally revolutionary one. As for my more medium-term alternatives, i've quoted crispy and Blagsta (above), and they've given a v good start
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That's just a semantic argument, really. Anyone who's ever spent time in a true dictatorship knows that the UK isn't one. But to me, democracy isn't an all or nothing quality. We have a bit of democracy in the UK. We could do with a whole lot more.
Meaningless slogans without an indication of the local and national structures that they would be associated with.
Explain how then. Structure. How it would work. How I would have my voice heard as an individual citizen.
Not meaningless slogans.
Indeed.
And to pin our hopes on things getting better on a global revolution is hardly a recipe for anything changing any time soon ...
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Not really. It's a wider definition of the term 'democracy', one that acknowledges that true democracy requires a fairer distribution of resources, for a start. Democracy isn't just having a vote in an election every few years. It extends to having a say in how your workplace is run, for instance and very importantly. It extends to notions of ownership – how can you have democracy when the majority have no ownership of the company they work for, for instance?
grit
an ugly force for good
I disagree with you on a bunch of stuff db, but here you have a point. Its all well and good repeating the strap lines but its irrelevant until actual workable plans are presented as an alternative.
fractionMan
Custom Title
I'm not seeking any sympathy. I was simply explaining the situation to madzone before they waded in with the predictable next comment and made themselves look a dick.
Oh right. Clearly my situation isn't as it, er, actually is. Obviously what it says in my pension documentation is wrong if you say you have never heard of such a thing. What fucking arrogant bollocks to post. It is exactly as I fucking described you dick.
Did you notice that the contributions are 11%. I doubt yours are anything like that. And of course the pension is acknowledged to be better than average to compensate in part for the restrictions on your private life that are associated with being a police officer. (ETA: I am not making this up. Even Andrew Gilligan comments: "The police, who do demanding jobs and pay quite high pension contributions, have traditionally been seen as a special case." (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...tor-pensions-crisis-facing-the-coalition.html)
And anyway, I didn't say it shouldn't be considered a "gold-plated" pension - in the big scheme of things it clearly is. I was again simply anticipating what madzone was likely to post next. So how about doing us all a favour and actually reading what I post and applying a bit of thought before posting next time?
I used to implement pensions calculations for a living. I've never seen one like yours with accelerating worth of contributions. Never. It is gold plated with knobs on top.
If yours is as you describe it then it is the equivalent to a 45ths final salary scheme, which is what executives at large companies are on. For comparison, nurses are on an 80ths scheme, almost twice as bad. They have to work 52 years to earn a pension like yours. It's not even possible
I checked, and you're not making it up. http://www.hansonwealth.co.uk/policefed/pps/pension.html
So yeah, boo fucking hoo. Take your pieces of silver.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
I used to implement pensions calculations for a living. I've never seen one like yours with accelerating worth of contributions. Never. It is gold plated with knobs on top.
If yours is as you describe it then it is the equivalent to a 45ths final salary scheme, which is what executives at large companies are on. For comparison, nurses are on an 80ths scheme, almost twice as bad. They have to work 52 years to earn a pension like yours. It's not even possible
I checked, and you're not making it up. http://www.hansonwealth.co.uk/policefed/pps/pension.html
So yeah, boo fucking hoo. Take your pieces of silver.
It's not affordable either. No money in the pot.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
OK, but bear with me as rthese things do take time to outline.
fractionMan
Custom Title
The real problem here is that they're going to use the cost of the retardedly generous police pension to attack all public sector pensions.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I would never attack someone's pension just because it was much better than mine. Far more important, and on the mark, to attack the lie that says that we cannot afford decent pensions any more. This is not true. It is not the poor that we cannot afford. It is the rich.
Indeed. You could have added ... and you have persuaded a critical mass of the citizens of the benefit of the alternative.
Our democracy would be much better if all those interested in making society better in any way could unite in a single desire to improve the engagement of citizens with the democratic processes (at all levels) above the frankly pathetic levels which currently exist. One really good thing about yesterday is that it has engaged masses of young people with a political debate for the first time in years. I hope their interest and involvement will be maintained (though I suspect it won't ... not least because the last thing the vested interests of the wannabee politicians (such as Aaron Porter) want is a load of other (rather more talented) people getting involved and competing with them for positions they have ambitions to fill ...).
So why not just fucking say that? Why post this shit first ...
... which basically alleges that I AM making it up.I used to implement pensions calculations for a living. I've never seen one like yours with accelerating worth of contributions. Never. It is gold plated with knobs on top.
If yours is as you describe it then it is the equivalent to a 45ths final salary scheme, which is what executives at large companies are on. For comparison, nurses are on an 80ths scheme, almost twice as bad. They have to work 52 years to earn a pension like yours. It's not even possible
You and your mates my lie and bullshit in what they post on here. I don't. I only post what I know to be true or what I believe to be true to the best of my knowledge and belief. If I am not sure I make that plain. If it is an opinion, rather than a fact, I make that plain.
Please do not judge me by your low standards.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No, it says the facts you offered are correct. Your interpretation of the relative privilege you have might have been challenged though. Paranoia.So why not just fucking say that? Why post this shit first ...
... which basically alleges that I AM making it up.
You and your mates my lie and bullshit in what they post on here. I don't. I only post what I know to be true or what I believe to be true to the best of my knowledge and belief. If I am not sure I make that plain. If it is an opinion, rather than a fact, I make that plain.
Please do not judge me by your low standards.
revol68
what, fucking what?
Let a thousand Aaron Porters bloom!
Do you ever think that the reason people have no truck with the 'democratic process' and the various window dressing of advisory boards, councils and focus groups is cos they are smarter than you, that they can see through the racket that is the state and 'society'. What we need is to feel empowered, to realise our own latent power to resist cuts and to impose our needs, it will be a long tough struggle but it is the actions like those of the students who bypassed NUS and took matters into their own hands that provide a starting point leap years in advance of all the letter righting, petition signing, bureaucrat electing bollocks that is pushing by desperate defenders of the status quo like yourself.
revol68
what, fucking what?
So why not just fucking say that? Why post this shit first ...
... which basically alleges that I AM making it up.
You and your mates my lie and bullshit in what they post on here. I don't. I only post what I know to be true or what I believe to be true to the best of my knowledge and belief. If I am not sure I make that plain. If it is an opinion, rather than a fact, I make that plain.
Please do not judge me by your low standards.
Typical cop paranoia, secretly crippled by fear that everyone knows you are a thick cunt you are constantly imaging them all scheming and plotting against you.
He never said you made it up, he said he has never come across such a pension and that if you have one it is an especially cushy one.
fractionMan
Custom Title
So why not just fucking say that? Why post this shit first ...
... which basically alleges that I AM making it up.
You and your mates my lie and bullshit in what they post on here. I don't. I only post what I know to be true or what I believe to be true to the best of my knowledge and belief. If I am not sure I make that plain. If it is an opinion, rather than a fact, I make that plain.
Please do not judge me by your low standards.
The only reason I'd think you were making it up is that it's so fantastical I couldn't believe it.
You get ten years more pension than a teacher or nurse, at a higher % of salary having worked only 3/4 of the years.
In fact you get paid twice as much money in total post retirement yet contribute less.
grit
an ugly force for good
It doesnt help your case though by intentionally alienating the other parts of society that could assist you in your fight for change. I post on urban because I want to learn of other viewpoints and as a consequence have learned and come to agree with viewpoints I previously didnt consider. However here the knee jerk reaction is the sneer and use the term middle class as an insult.
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