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NUS national protest against the cuts 10.11.10 [London]

Cobbles said:
I know - letting women and those who haven't passed their military training become citizens - they'd spin in their graves.

If it's direct democracy you're after, where do you suggest that the assembly should be (bear in mind that it has to be large enough to house the whole citizen population)?
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where did these greeks describe their democracy as direct?
 
Pickman's model said:
where did these greeks describe their democracy as direct?
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Apart from their wide restrictions on who had a right to participate, the only way that early Greek democracy was different was that it didn't involve citizens voting for representatives who legislated on their behalf.
 
Cobbles said:
I know - letting women and those who haven't passed their military training become citizens - they must be spinning in their graves.

If it's direct democracy you're after, where do you suggest that the assembly should be (bear in mind that it has to be large enough to house the whole citizen population)?
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#where did I say that I, personally, favour direct democracy? I didn't - i just think our system is, or has become, a complete betrayal of democracy.
 
Cobbles said:
Apart from their wide restrictions on who had a right to participate, the only way that early Greek democracy was different was that it didn't involve citizens voting for representatives who legislated on their behalf.
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no, i said 'where did these greeks describe their democracy as direct', not 'let's see you spout some irrelevant blather'.
 
chilango said:
Cost of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan 12 billion (says Brown) and rising.

Amount saved by cuts 6 billion (says Osborne)

So clearly, its not spending on education, welfare etc that is causing the problem...
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My bug bear is the annual spend on IT being about £21Bn per annum, and that's with around 70% of large government IT projects failing. If we actual held those companies that delivered failed IT to account then we probably wouldn't need a rise in tuition fees. Instead we are beholden to these huge companies IBM, Fujitsu, CSC etc. and would risk being sued to the tune of Billions if we pulled out of their contracts. It's a national disgrace.

For the record I oppose a rise in tuition fees.
 
moon23 said:
My bug bear is the annual spend on IT being about £21Bn per annum, and that's with around 70% of large government IT projects failing. If we actual held those companies that delivered failed IT to account then we probably wouldn't need a rise in tuition fees. Instead we are beholden to these huge companies IBM, Fujitsu, CSC etc. and would risk being sued to the tune of Billions if we pulled out of their contracts. It's a national disgrace.

For the record I oppose a rise in tuition fees.
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oh do fuck off
 
moon23 said:
My bug bear is the annual spend on IT being about £21Bn per annum, and that's with around 70% of large government IT projects failing. If we actual held those companies that delivered failed IT to account then we probably wouldn't need a rise in tuition fees. Instead we are beholden to these huge companies IBM, Fujitsu, CSC etc. and would risk being sued to the tune of Billions if we pulled out of their contracts. It's a national disgrace.

For the record I oppose a rise in tuition fees.
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Sorry, for the vast majority of cases the government is responsible for those failures. I work in a private company that provides specialised IT services to the public sector. We have several customers who paid full whack for our products and never even installed them even after we offer to come out free of charge to do it for them.
 
fractionMan said:
You oppose it by continuing to support that shower of fucks.

Well done.
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I opposed tution fees when they were introduced with direct action, and it didn't change anything. Now I choose to work within the democratic system to try and acheive change. So I oppose it by encouraging Lib Dem MPs to vote against the measure. I do also think that the party has made the Browne review proposals fairer. For instance the 25% of students on the lowest incomes will pay less under this proposed system.
 
moon23 said:
My bug bear is the annual spend on IT being about £21Bn per annum, and that's with around 70% of large government IT projects failing. If we actual held those companies that delivered failed IT to account then we probably wouldn't need a rise in tuition fees. Instead we are beholden to these huge companies IBM, Fujitsu, CSC etc. and would risk being sued to the tune of Billions if we pulled out of their contracts. It's a national disgrace.

For the record I oppose a rise in tuition fees.
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See the cuts aren't necessary.

But the banks' cock up have given post-thatcherite governments and their friends in business the world over an alibi to launch an outright assault of looting and plundering in a viscious escalation of class war.
 
moon23 said:
I opposed tution fees when they were introduced with direct action, and it didn't change anything. Now I choose to work within the democratic system to try and acheive change. So I oppose it by encouraging Lib Dem MPs to vote against the measure. I do also think that the party has made the Browne review proposals fairer. For instance the 25% of students on the lowest incomes will pay less under this proposed system.
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so what? The party you support, in just about every way possible is doing something that - viewed overall - will deter kids from w./c class backgrounds from Higher Education, and saddle students with mountains of debt. you saying that you, personally, 'oppose it' means FUCK ALL.
 
Streathamite said:
I DON'T call it 'democracy' - anything but!
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It isn't perfect by any means, which is why there is a significant campaign for electoral reform and many critics of the civil service departmental bureaucracies.

It is worth remembering the Conservative party won more votes than any other party at the last election a more democratic system might actually see more conservative views being represented as the British public is quite conservative really.
 
Streathamite said:
so what? The party you support, in just about every way possible is doing something that - viewed overall - will deter kids from w./c class backgrounds from Higher Education, and saddle students with mountains of debt. you saying that you, personally, 'oppose it' means FUCK ALL.
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I think many Lib Dems oppose a rise in tuition fees but are faced with an impossible parliamentary situation where the majority of the house wants to introduce them. The question is then do you make a principled stance and oppose the Conservatives or do you try and get involved in the decision making process to try and make the proposals fairer. I think raising the repayment threshold, and the additional help to poorer students makes the system fairer.

In terms of pure self-interest for the party it would have been easier to stand on the side-lines remaining ideological principled but having zero impact on the decision making process. I know this is the type of political strategy preferred by many on the left but it consistently fails to make any difference to people’s lives.
 
moon23 said:
It isn't perfect by any means, which is why there is a significant campaign for electoral reform and many critics of the civil service departmental bureaucracies.

It is worth remembering the Conservative party won more votes than any other party at the last election a more democratic system might actually see more conservative views being represented as the British public is quite conservative really.
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not, i suspect, for much longer.
 
A question for you, Moon. Do you think the Tories would be attempting to slash university funding by 40% (something that was not mentioned at all in their manifesto) if they had been a minority govt and not in 'coalition'?
 
moon23 said:
I think many Lib Dems oppose a rise in tuition fees but are faced with an impossible parliamentary situation where the majority of the house wants to introduce them. The question is then do you make a principled stance and oppose the Conservatives or do you try and get involved in the decision making process to try and make the proposals fairer. I think raising the repayment threshold, and the additional help to poorer students makes the system fairer.

In terms of pure self-interest for the party it would have been easier to stand on the side-lines remaining ideological principled but having zero impact on the decision making process. I know this is the type of political strategy preferred by many on the left but it consistently fails to make any difference to people’s lives.
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Actually, you were the ones who turned the tories minority vote into a majority one. You were the ones who enabled this. Without you it would not have happened. You engineered that parliamentary arithmetic. You made this happen.
 
It's a shame that there's this Tory majority that allows them to just force through whatever they like, without the poor Lib Dems being able to do anything about it, so they're forced to just try to change the system from the inside.

edit: hah
 
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