NUS national protest against the cuts 10.11.10 [London]

[moon23]

sorry, but only someone under Tory indoctrination could come up with this ridiculous conformist crap. The people who will be most 'alienated' by yesterday (smug tory suits in the Home Counties) are simply not on our side anyway, and their support isn't worth having, and never has been. What possibly could the Studes lose by having such people tutting into their G&Ts? Parents up and down the country seeing their kids saddled with such crippling debts will see it differently.
More importantly, yesterday was a declaration of intent, that we are NOT just going to be walked over. The Govt HAS to take that seriously.

I don't know how many parents would be happy to see their kid smashing up glass windows with concrete blocks, I guess a lot would agree that they should go on a peaceful demonstration. If someone had been killed by that fire extinguisher yesterday then things could be very different today. That type of violent protest is a highly risky strategy that is just as likely to damage cause than help it.

 

[Streathamite]

they're not really swappies, they're a split from the swappies IIRC

Really? I thought it was some sort of collaboration?
the swappies are certainly involved - rees, bambery and german (i/c SWP) are on the steering committee, and Yaqoob is in there - and, given their history, a feeling of 'oh christ, here we go again' when I realised how strongly they were involved. CoR have a national conference on 27/11/10 after which all will become clearer as to who does what. We have delegates going.

 

[chilango]

There has been direct action and violence against tution fees in the past.

Really? There have, to be sure, been attempts at pushing for a more action orientated strategy, but these have almost always been dismissed by the NUS and so on. Thus, more direct tactics have tended to remain localised or on the fringes.

As for violence? I'd like to hear some evidence of any violence at a student protest over the last couple of decades since the demos of 90/91 I mentioned earlier, which wernt really violent either (I have one, and only one, very local example. Which as it happens was the most succesful student protest I've ever seen. It won.)

 

[frogwoman]

Really? I thought it was some sort of collaboration?
the swappies are certainly involved - rees, bambery and german (i/c SWP) are on the steering committee, and Yaqoob is in there - and, given their history, a feeling of 'oh christ, here we go again' when I realised how strongly they were involved. CoR have a national conference on 27/11/10 after which all will become clearer as to who does what. We have delegates going.

yeah they're still basically swappies though , lindsey german and some others are still involved and for all i know the swp themselves may also be involved. i thought german etc split from the swappies anyway? god knows i cant keep track

 

[moon23]

Really? There have, to be sure, been attempts at pushing for a more action orientated strategy, but these have almost always been dismissed by the NUS and so on. Thus, more direct tactics have tended to remain localised or on the fringes.

As for violence? I'd like to hear some evidence of any violence at a student protest over the last couple of decades since the demos of 90/91 I mentioned earlier, which wernt really violent either (I have one, and only one, very local example. Which as it happens was the most succesful student protest I've ever seen. It won.)

It's the extent to which they are reported, this was outside Millbank so it got lot's of national coverage. I've been at local actions with roadblocks and occupations, and been aware of violent ones at Sussex campus before. Probably not on the same scale though I admit that.

 

[moon23]

I feel sorry for all the unmasked kids who are going to get nicked after they followed the lead of the committed activists.

 

[Streathamite]

I don't know how many parents would be happy to see their kid smashing up glass windows with concrete blocks,

How many parents do you know are happy to see their kids start their working lifes some 40k in debt?

I guess a lot would agree that they should go on a peaceful demonstration.

'peaceful' never stopped anyone in their tracks, students have protersted peacefully over fees etc for the past 20 years, and lost/been ignored every time.

If someone had been killed by that fire extinguisher yesterday then things could be very different today.

but they weren't, were they, so it's irrelevant.

That type of violent protest is a highly risky strategy that is just as likely to damage cause than help it

to repeat, the only people it will alienate are the people least likely to be on their side anyway, and whose help is least useful - your new-found bourgeois tory chums in the south

 

[madzone]

I don't know how many parents would be happy to see their kid smashing up glass windows with concrete blocks, I guess a lot would agree that they should go on a peaceful demonstration. If someone had been killed by that fire extinguisher yesterday then things could be very different today. That type of violent protest is a highly risky strategy that is just as likely to damage cause than help it.

I would have been proud if that had been any of my kids yesterday. Define 'violence' anyway.

 

[fogbat]

Those violent ones aren't real football fans students.

 

[fogbat]

I would have been proud if that had been any of my kids yesterday. Define 'violence' anyway.

Beating the shit out of a window. Windows are people, too.

 

[Random]

Yeah, that's what I'd like to see. What I fear I will see is 'power back to Labour'.


As dissent at the cuts increases labour will presumably re-position themselves in such a way as to look like they are the natural channel for that dissent. I'd like to think people's memories weren't so short, but that would be wishful thinking.

Millitant protests this early on will also help make the anti-cuts movement less palatable to Labour, though.

 

[krtek a houby]

I feel sorry for all the unmasked kids who are going to get nicked after they followed the lead of the committed activists.

I thought it was quite brave of them, actually. Not that I condone violence, mind.

 

[Streathamite]

yeah they're still basically swappies though , lindsey german and some others are still involved and for all i know the swp themselves may also be involved. i thought german etc split from the swappies anyway? god knows i cant keep track

i know what you mean,. it's a political 'East enders' after you've missed a crucial episode!
I think their CC got German back on board, but they've all dumped the WESPECK peroject....

 

[Random]

it seems that, in this case as in so many others, the 'committed activists' were actually following the lead of ordinary, pissed-off students.

 

[Flanflinger]

Clearly not - given s/he probably supports the fella who just bought the results of the last election with his tax-free cash (Ashcroft)

Listen up. I spent more time locked up in police cells as a youth than most on here. I spent time in a detention centre where just looking the wrong way at a screw earnt you a good kicking. I've done porridge and seen it all in my 52 years. One thing I did learn is you can't beat the system. As for voting, labour everytime since 79. It's a shitty world out there, so learn to live with it and look after number one.

 

[Streathamite]

Millitant protests this early on will also help make the anti-cuts movement less palatable to Labour, though.

fine - that means sooner or later, Labour will face a choice of growing a pair or cutting themslef off from their core support - again.
frankly, screw labour - when were they last really for The Workers?

 

[ExtraRefined]

So do you think that unless someone pays tax you they have no legitimate right to have a say in how the country is run?

Votes should be weighted according to income tax paid. That should end the moaning about tax dodges from the well off.

 

[madzone]

Listen up. I spent more time locked up in police cells as a youth than most on here. I spent time in a detention centre where just looking the wrong way at a screw earnt you a good kicking. I've done porridge and seen it all in my 52 years. One thing I did learn is you can't beat the system. As for voting, labour everytime since 79. It's a shitty world out there, so learn to live with it and look after number one.

 

[moon23]

it seems that, in this case as in so many others, the 'committed activists' were actually following the lead of ordinary, pissed-off students.

Typcial, whip them up and then step back.

 

[Streathamite]

Listen up. I spent more time locked up in police cells as a youth than most on here. I spent time in a detention centre where just looking the wrong way at a screw earnt you a good kicking. I've done porridge and seen it all in my 52 years. One thing I did learn is you can't beat the system. As for voting, labour everytime since 79. It's a shitty world out there, so learn to live with it and look after number one.

well, bully for you, so how about stuffing your worthless, defeatist and conservative (note; small 'c') worldview up your arse? The fact you were a petty crim hardly makes you a political guru.

 

[the button]

Listen up. I spent more time locked up in police cells as a youth than most on here. I spent time in a detention centre where just looking the wrong way at a screw earnt you a good kicking. I've done porridge and seen it all in my 52 years. One thing I did learn is you can't beat the system. As for voting, labour everytime since 79. It's a shitty world out there, so learn to live with it and look after number one.

Mum?

 

[revlon]

Listen up. I spent more time locked up in police cells as a youth than most on here. I spent time in a detention centre where just looking the wrong way at a screw earnt you a good kicking. I've done porridge and seen it all in my 52 years. One thing I did learn is you can't beat the system. As for voting, labour everytime since 79. It's a shitty world out there, so learn to live with it and look after number one.

are you norman stanley fletcher?

 

[Streathamite]

Votes should be weighted according to income tax paid. That should end the moaning about tax dodges from the well off.

oh chrisrt, the idiots really are up and about, some pondlife who wants to drag us back to pre-1832

 

[frogwoman]

i knwo what you mean,. it's a political 'East enders' after you've missed a crucial episode!
I think their CC got German back on board, but they've all dumped the WESPECK peroject....

whose clare solomon involved with?

 

[moon23]

How many parents do you know are happy to see their kids start their working lifes some 40k in debt?

'peaceful' never stopped anyone in their tracks, students have protersted peacefully over fees etc for the past 20 years, and lost/been ignored every time.

but they weren't, were they, so it's irrelevant.


to repeat, the only people it will alienate are the people least likely to be on their side anyway, and whose help is least useful - your new-found bourgeois tory chums in the south

It makes it much harder for anti-fee politicans make the case if they start to get assoicated with militancy.

 

[krtek a houby]

Mum?

 

[frogwoman]

Typcial, whip them up and then step back.

Bit like the Lib Dems then.

 

[frogwoman]

It makes it much harder for anti-fee politicans make the case if they start to get assoicated with militancy.

Militancy Oh noez!

 

[Pickman's model]

whose clare solomon involved with?

the ruc? expelled from swp earlier in year, president of ulu, likes writing on her hand, ujs have just called for her resignation

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I guess they pay VAT on Rizzla and Cider, not that you'd catch me smoking or drinking, both pursuits of the feckless with which I'll have no truck.

I hope for the sake of my unpricipled and dishonest party, that the trouble yesterday will have hurt the student's case.

If they expect other people to pay for their education they need to argue the net benefit to society is worth paying for it out of general education; rather like NUS NEC member James Haywood does:

in capitulating to the idea that education is a private good, it’s actually helping the process of privatisation because with a separate tax we’re suggesting that education isn’t a public service that we should all pay for out of the taxes we pay normally​

For a long time they have allowed the debate to be framed in terms of individual benefit from education in terms of salary. Whilst the debate stays framed in those arguments they will lose.

Scenes of kids with odd haircuts waving Iphones about and smashing up buildings will not do them any good. I am feeing every one of my sixty three years of age as I type this.

Just thought I'd edit your post to include the bits you obviously missed out due to some oversight, or typo, or lack of time, or inability to tell the truth.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice