"Not enough in the pension pot" my arse

[citydreams]

Thomas Paine hero of the American Revolution was proposing one back in the 1770s.

You are joking, right?

 

[sihhi]

You are joking, right?

No I'm not in 1796 in his speeches on "Agrarian Justice"- his proposal is a citizen's income.

 

[William of Walworth]

Andrew Marr (job for life and a big pension at the end of it) didn't mention expropriating the expropriators.

I've got a 'job for life' and a (currently) generous pension at the end of it.

I know Andrew Marr takes home a shed load more than me, but that implied resentment of 'jobs for life' will I predict, be reproduced in Daily Express/Mail headlines very very soon, when they start turning their trademark outrage and fury against the much bigger number/proportion of much lower paid public servants who 'oh so unfairly' get to retire at 60 with a reasonable(ish) pension scheme -- in the case of the Civil Service, at least.

EVERYONE should have secure jobs and decent pensions, if they want them.

I'm more interested in preserving (or improving) existing Civil/Public service pension entitlements (plus extending them to more people, but that's the next utopian step!). If that includes giving a tiny proportion of publicly employed bosses a decent pension as well, then I can (sort of) live with that so long as our rights aren't fucked about with.

 

[audiotech]

I've got a 'job for life' and a (currently) generous pension at the end of it.

I know Andrew Marr takes home a shed load more than me, but that implied resentment of 'jobs for life' will I predict, be reproduced in Daily Express/Mail headlines very very soon, when they start turning their trademark outrage and fury against the much bigger number/proportion of much lower paid public servants who 'oh so unfairly' get to retire at 60 with a reasonable(ish) pension scheme -- in the case of the Civil Service, at least.

EVERYONE should have secure jobs and decent pensions, if they want them.

I'm more interested in preserving (or improving) existing Civil/Public service pension entitlements (plus extending them to more people, but that's the next utopian step!). If that includes giving a tiny proportion of publicly employed bosses a decent pension as well, then I can (sort of) live with that so long as our rights aren't fucked about with.

As another posted out (See post #15.) and which I referred to, said this:

Andrew Marr and the BBC are currently telling me that there are only FOUR options:

1 work longer
2 force us to spend less
3 higher income tax
4 accept poor pentioners

Your statement that 'EVERYONE should have secure jobs and decent pensions, if they want them' is a good one, but most now don't have such a luxury.

Some are more equal than others and that's the rub.

 

[William of Walworth]

I appreciate that, but I suppose I'm a bit sensitive to language ... and to how a right wing populist newspaper or organisation could use fatcat pensions of public sector bosses as an stick to beat the pension rights of the far more numerous public sector workers at more mundane levels of income.

Also, I tend to think Private Sector fatcats enjoy far more obscene levels of luxury ...

Cutting the pension entitlements of Andrew Marr and others at his level
to a more equitable level isn't really a realistic option any time soon, but hanging on to our rights at our level just might be ...

 

[sihhi]

Here comes Aidar Turner's Report.

In the next couple of days apparently...
Mostly younger working-class adults and today's generation of children will get the worst deal.

David Cameron and David Davies and Charles Kennedy all sound just as cunt-ish as New Labour on pensions past couple of weeks.

 

[Fruitloop]

Much worse, I think. They've certainly answered the question as to whether the tories could really be worse than NL to my satisfaction in the last couple of weeks. David Cameron particularly has been coming out with some wacky-scary freemarket moony-ism.

 

[sihhi]

Much worse, I think. They've certainly answered the question as to whether the tories could really be worse than NL to my satisfaction in the last couple of weeks. David Cameron particularly has been coming out with some wacky-scary freemarket moony-ism.

That George Osborne aswell.

 

[William of Walworth]

Turner Report just released today

At-a-glance : Pensions report

BBC News outlines the key proposals and conclusions of the Pensions Commission

State pension reform

The state pension age for men and women should rise to 66 by 2030, to 67 by 2040 and to 68 by 2050
Increases in the state pension age should be linked to rising life expectancy
The state pension should be more generous, with increases linked from 2010 to average wages and not prices
The state system should become "as non-means tested as possible"
In future the savings element of the pension credit should rise by less than average earnings. However, the guaranteed income element of the pension credit should continue to increase in line with earnings
With the aim of easing the plight of women pensioners, entitlement to the state pension should be based on residency rather than national insurance contributions
The over 75s should be entitled to a universal basic state pension
The current state second pension should evolve into a flat rate payment
A standing commission to monitor pension policy should be established
The option allowing personal pension scheme members to contract out of the state second pension should be abolished

Boosting savings

A new National Pension Savings Scheme (NPSS) should be established by 2010
People who do not belong to a workplace pension scheme would be automatically enrolled into the NPSS
Employers would be compelled to contribute to their workers' NPSS
Under the NPSS, employees would contribute 4% of their salary, employers 3% and the government 1%
Employers can opt employees out of the NPSS if they offer a pension scheme which operates auto-enrolment and the level of contributions match those under the NPSS
Self-employed workers should be able to join the NPSS on a voluntary basis, while those not in paid work should be able to join and receive tax relief on contributions
Workers who wished to contribute more of their salary should be free to do so
People would be free to opt out of the NPSS
People will be able to choose from a range of funds where their NPSS is invested
The commission said annual management costs for the NPSS should be no higher than 0.3%
It should be possible for money saved in the NPSS to be inherited

Longer working

Age discrimination legislation should apply to over 65s
The government should better publicise the already existing option for people to defer taking their state pension
The government should consider whether to reduce or eliminate employer national insurance contributions for workers over age 65
At present, training expenditure tends to be "skewed" towards younger people. The government should ensure all public training programmes are non-age specific

Not many comments at this stage -- still taking it in ...

If the increase in pension age really dos end up rising, I can see it being extraordinarily unpopular, if it's compulsory. The earlier dispute over public service pensions, the eligibility age the Government recently wanted to increase (before backing down), shows to me that most people are more bothered about when they retire, than about how much they retire with ...

 

[knopf]

Maybe it's just semantics, but does anyone else think it's significant that they've started talking about "state pension age" rather than "retirement age"? Maybe trying to foster the idea that you make your own provision to "retire" when you want, and that your "state pension" kicks in some years later?

If that's true, I'm well fucked. I had 5/6 years out of the conventional labour market (*cough*), and can't help but think it's a bit late to start paying into something now. (I'm 35).

 

[tbaldwin]

Turner Report just released today



Not many comments at this stage -- still taking it in ...

If the increase in pension age really dos end up rising, I can see it being extraordinarily unpopular, if it's compulsory. The earlier dispute over public service pensions, the eligibility age the Government recently wanted to increase (before backing down), shows to me that most people are more bothered about when they retire, than about how much they retire with ...

The pensions industry is a very powerful force, the media is full of shit about how we should all have private pensions(conveniently overlooking the fact there run by crooks and charlatans)
The Left has been shit on issues like this. We should argue for an increase in the pension and lowering the age of retirement.
Papers like the Guardian and the fucking Obsever and Independent really show their true colours on this issue.

 

[William of Walworth]

Papers like the Guardian and the fucking Obsever and Independent really show their true colours on this issue.

Agreed.

Recent drivel from Peter Preston in the Guardian about how it's OK indeed good, to work longer... well it's fun if you're a well renumerated part time columnist, able to pick your own hours, ain't it Pete?

'Fun' pocket money for what you enjoy doing on your own terms, won't be the case for most ...

But to put it into context, the Mail, Express, Times and Telegraph have been even WORSE!

 

[citydreams]

There was a god point made on Radio4 this week but I'm not sure which big wig it was that made - that the whole concept of retirement is wrong, we should be allowed to scale down our working hours from an earlier period rather than having to work till we've a few sandwiches short of a picnic. Personally, if I become brown bread before I've reached my retirement age I'm going to be chasing Tony Blair through the narrow streets of hell.

 

[butchersapron]

Bosses can retire at 60 on pensions 26 times higher than workers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4464258.stm

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/new...01969_RTRUKOC_0_UK-FINANCIAL-PENSIONS-TUC.xml

http://www.tuc.org.uk/pensions/tuc-11047-f0.cfm

 

[tbaldwin]

Agreed.

Recent drivel from Peter Preston in the Guardian about how it's OK indeed good, to work longer... well it's fun if you're a well renumerated part time columnist, able to pick your own hours, ain't it Pete?

'Fun' pocket money for what you enjoy doing on your own terms, won't be the case for most ...

But to put it into context, the Mail, Express, Times and Telegraph have been even WORSE!

Yeah but they are Tory papers and people kind of expect them to sing the advertisers tune. A lot of Guardian readers seem quite guillible about that papers agenda((s)

 

[William of Walworth]

Good link -- that first one would be a good thing (among other arguments) to throw back against people wanting to whinge about 'featherbedded' civil and public servants 'retiring early'

 

[Louis MacNeice]

There was a god point made on Radio4 this week but I'm not sure which big wig it was that made - that the whole concept of retirement is wrong, we should be allowed to scale down our working hours from an earlier period rather than having to work till we've a few sandwiches short of a picnic. Personally, if I become brown bread before I've reached my retirement age I'm going to be chasing Tony Blair through the narrow streets of hell.

Michael Howard said it on the Today programme this morning; I'd be very circumspect about getting rid of the idea of retirement altogether, as it would all too easily be rapidly replaced with the demand to keep working. Why not keep the idea of retirement as a right to be exercised by employees, and do away with the right of employers to retire people who wish to, and are able to, continue working past the statutory retirement age?

As is probably apparent I'm really enjoying my work at present and can see it stretching into the dim distance of my old age - Louis Mac

 

[William of Walworth]

Why not keep the idea of retirement as a right to be exercised by employees, and do away with the right of employers to retire people who wish to, and are able to, continue working past the statutory retirement age?

You mean for certifiable lunatics???

As is probably apparent I'm really enjoying my work at present and can see it stretching into the dim distance of my old age - Louis Mac

Oops ...

Seriously though ....

I'm all up for giving people the choice to work longer if they genuinely want to, mad though that seems to me, but what I don't want is for 'rights' to work longer being used as a propoganda smokescreen to pretty up and make sound good more general compulsion ...

 

[sihhi]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jan/01/private-pensions-worst-year-on-record

The "pension holidays" as dictated by boardrooms are just getting longer and longer. Final salary pension schemes are no longer offered from profits, the tax revenue (minus most corporation tax since mass evasion is the norm there) is expected to take up the slack. Enough companies (capitalists) are doing it together so that the majority of companies are insulated from any labour market effects (skilled people choosing to avoid non-final-salary-pension companies, unionisation in response, strike action etc.)

For companies in the FTSE 100 taken on their own, the year-on-year deterioration was even starker as they swung from a pensions surplus of £12bn in 2008 to a deficit of £72bn at the end of 2009.

"2009 has not been a good year for UK pension schemes … the increase of over £170bn in the total deficit, as recorded in companies' accounts, is the worst calendar-year performance on record," said Charles Cowling, PCS managing director.

"Despite strong investment returns in equities and elsewhere, pension deficits have risen sharply as liabilities have increased by even more than the investments. This is mainly due to changes in the bond rates used to value liabilities.

Profits are good and stable but it won't be passed on as pension.

Rising life expectancy and declining annuity rates have worked with falling bond yields to drive up the cost of providing pensions. The crisis facing Britain's pension industrysaw Barclays, BP and the supermarket chain Morrisons all close their final-salary schemes to new members in 2009.

The state capitalist market - pensions will be needed more than ever, so their cost on the money market will go up.