New Labour government - legislative agenda

[Silas Loom]

Have a word with yourself. I live alone in a 2 bedroom housing association flat. Very occasionally I have friends stay over. Where are they supposed to sleep if I am 'encouraged' to trade down? I fail to see why I should suddenly be penalised for living alone when the government is quite deliberately ignoring the elephant in the room: tax the rich and make large corporations pay their fair share.

A two bedroom flat is what a single person might trade down to as an alternative to a four bedroom house that would be ideal for large families.

Nobody should be penalised for living alone, but I don’t see why there should be incentives for doing so when there is an acute housing shortage.

 

[teqniq]

A two bedroom flat is what a single person might trade down to as an alternative to a four bedroom house that would be ideal for large families.

That was completely unclear from your post and also fails to address the elephant in the room.

 

[stethoscope]

A two bedroom flat is what a single person might trade down to as an alternative to a four bedroom house that would be ideal for large families.

Nobody should be penalised for living alone, but I don’t see why there should be incentives for doing so when there is an acute housing shortage.

Do you centrists always just push things onto individuals, rather than deal with the actual structural and systemic issues that exist related to house building, replacing social housing for those sold off, etc.

 

[PTK]

"Trading down" is likely to act contrary to "community building". My mother lived in her three-bedroom council house for fifty years. Should she have moved to another area? Should council houses by purged of the old?

 

[Silas Loom]

Do you centrists always just push things onto individuals, rather than deal with the actual structural and systemic issues such as house building, replacing social housing for those sold off, etc.

Of course there should be houses built, most of which should be social housing. I started a thread a while ago about building megacities in the south east and north west to make that happen quicker. I just don’t see why rich old folks rattling around solo in massive family homes should get a discount.

 

[stethoscope]

Cant be arsed...

 

[Puddy_Tat]

It wouldn’t be a bad thing to encourage people living alone in homes which are too big for them to trade down. Council tax values need to be reassessed and tied to property values and redistributed nationally anyway,

on one hand, i'm surprised council tax has lasted so long - it was a hasty bodge on the john major government's part to get rid of the poll tax.

in theory it added elements of the rates (which were a fixed amount per property irrespective of how many occupants there were, based on notional property value) and the single person discount as keeping a bit of a personal element. one of the arguments against the rates was that a house with 3 or 4 working adults living there got charged the same as next door that might only have a single person living there.

but the valuations were pretty much back of a fag packet at the time, the system of central government grants to councils was fiddled during poll tax so that a few 'flagship' tory councils could set very low poll tax rates, and the valuations / banding is very out of date.

I just don’t see why rich old folks rattling around solo in massive family homes should get a discount.

again, i don't see pensioners with an income of slightly above £ 220 a week as being 'rich'...

 

[The39thStep]

"Trading down" is likely to act contrary to "community building". My mother lived in her three-bedroom council house for fifty years. Should she have moved to another area? Should council houses by purged of the old?

There will probably be some Labour posters who would support this if the wording was better. Something like age related transfer to personalised accommodation.?
Similarly, tenants who don't mow their gardens could be transferred to flats.

 

[Silas Loom]

on one hand, i'm surprised council tax has lasted so long - it was a hasty bodge on the john major government's part to get rid of the poll tax.

in theory it added elements of the rates (which were a fixed amount per property irrespective of how many occupants there were, based on notional property value) and the single person discount as keeping a bit of a personal element. one of the arguments against the rates was that a house with 3 or 4 working adults living there got charged the same as next door that might only have a single person living there.

but the valuations were pretty much back of a fag packet at the time, the system of central government grants to councils was fiddled during poll tax so that a few 'flagship' tory councils could set very low poll tax rates, and the valuations / banding is very out of date.



again, i don't see pensioners with an income of slightly above £ 220 a week as being 'rich'...

So really there should be a land value tax, calculated according to the local market then redistributed equitably to councils, which makes it much cheaper to live in a flat, and also disincentivises paving over gardens.

This would be a much better way of ensuring that rich people pay more than poor people, and also means that when we talk about the pensioners who are paying the normal whack for suburban houses with gardens in the south east, we’re definitely talking about rich ones.

 

[MickiQ]

on one hand, i'm surprised council tax has lasted so long - it was a hasty bodge on the john major government's part to get rid of the poll tax.

in theory it added elements of the rates (which were a fixed amount per property irrespective of how many occupants there were, based on notional property value) and the single person discount as keeping a bit of a personal element. one of the arguments against the rates was that a house with 3 or 4 working adults living there got charged the same as next door that might only have a single person living there.

but the valuations were pretty much back of a fag packet at the time, the system of central government grants to councils was fiddled during poll tax so that a few 'flagship' tory councils could set very low poll tax rates, and the valuations / banding is very out of date.



again, i don't see pensioners with an income of slightly above £ 220 a week as being 'rich'...

Maximum state pension is £221.20 pw for someone who retires at 66 after a full 35 years of paying NI (I delayed mine for 6 months since I was still working so I get an impressive £2.51 pw extra)

 

[Silas Loom]

Cant be arsed...

Good. Your original post was unfair and assumptive, I doubt that whatever edits you were up to made it any better.

 

[stethoscope]

Good. Your original post was unfair and assumptive, I doubt that whatever edits you were up to made it any better.

Fuck off maurice.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

There will probably be some Labour posters who would support this if the wording was better. Something like age related transfer to personalised accommodation.?

to be honest, with an adequate supply of social housing, then the system could allow tenants to move house within their existing neighbourhoods - either to larger places when they have kids, or to smaller places when they no longer have kids, or to more accessible places when they become infirm. i'm sure that does happen to some extent still, and think it used to be relatively commonplace. the general (intentionally created) shortage of social housing can block this.

although some councils do have schemes that will support older tenants who want to move somewhere smaller, e.g. assistance with costs of moving / redecorating and so on.

This would be a much better way of ensuring that rich people pay more than poor people, and also means that when we talk about the pensioners who are paying the normal whack for suburban houses with gardens in the south east, we’re definitely talking about rich ones.

depends what you mean by 'rich'

someone who's lived since the 1970s in what was then a fairly modest house but is now on a basic state pension (or slightly more than that) isn't remotely 'rich' in terms of income.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

There's such a lack of empathy in the whole 'single old people rattling around in big houses' sort of attitude isn't there. My mum is an older person on her own in a house that's bigger than she needs tbh, but that's because my dad died last year. It's still the house where they lived together for decades though. I imagine that's probably a similar situation to a lot of if not most people in that situation. To say 'oh they should just move somewhere smaller' might be rational from some sort of space optimization point of view but it really misses the human element.

 

[PTK]

Blame the old, that is what I say. They in their three bedroom council houses on their massive state pensions.
I saw an old bloke the other day buying a copy of the Financial Times. Why does he need to buy it, if he's so poor? How is it that he can afford to buy it, if pensions are so low?

 

[Silas Loom]

There's such a lack of empathy in the whole 'single old people rattling around in big houses' sort of attitude isn't there. My mum is an older person on her own in a house that's bigger than she needs tbh, but that's because my dad died last year. It's still the house where they lived together for decades though. I imagine that's probably a similar situation to a lot of if not most people in that situation. To say 'oh they should just move somewhere smaller' might be rational from some sort of space optimization point of view but it really misses the human element.

My mum is in exactly the same position, and I’m sure she won’t move until or unless she needs to, so I don’t think I’m missing the human element.

 

[Chz]

There's such a lack of empathy in the whole 'single old people rattling around in big houses' sort of attitude isn't there. My mum is an older person on her own in a house that's bigger than she needs tbh, but that's because my dad died last year. It's still the house where they lived together for decades though. I imagine that's probably a similar situation to a lot of if not most people in that situation. To say 'oh they should just move somewhere smaller' might be rational from some sort of space optimization point of view but it really misses the human element.

There should be a property tax (to replace council tax) with a discount for those on lower earnings (which would cover most pensioners). Such that it would be quite possible to live as a singleton grandma in your 3 bed council flat after the kids have fled and your husband's died, but somewhat punitive to rattle about a million pound property. And if someone has to sell their million pound property for something more thrifty to afford the property tax better, then tough shit says I.

 

[The39thStep]

Susanna Reid is now on the left of some urban posters

 

[PTK]

Would the act of someone moving from a house to a flat counteract the effects of the abolition of the single person discount?

I once live in Seaford, many years ago, and this is why I have chosen Seaford as an example.

A house would probably be in Band C.
Band C Council Tax liability in Seaford is £2,194.12.
A single person discount would reduce this liability to £1,645.59.

A flat would probably be in Band B.
Band B in Seaford is £1,919.85.

Therefore, if a single person in Seaford moved from their house into a flat, that person would be liable for more Council Tax than they would have been liable for had they stayed in the house and the discount was still in place.

Check your Council Tax band - Lewes and Eastbourne Councils

 

[PTK]

.

 

[Wkdloz]

Blame the old, that is what I say. They in their three bedroom council houses on their massive state pensions.
I saw an old bloke the other day buying a copy of the Financial Times. Why does he need to buy it, if he's so poor? How is it that he can afford to buy it, if pensions are so low?

Saw one bloke did you? Well that's laughable, is that what you call a fair survey?

 

[Pickman's model]

Blame the old, that is what I say. They in their three bedroom council houses on their massive state pensions.
I saw an old bloke the other day buying a copy of the Financial Times. Why does he need to buy it, if he's so poor? How is it that he can afford to buy it, if pensions are so low?

you never

 

[Chz]

Would the act of someone moving from a house to a flat counteract the effects of the abolition of the single person discount?

I once live in Seaford, many years ago, and this is why I have chosen Seaford as an example.

A house would probably be in Band C.
Band C Council Tax liability in Seaford is £2,194.12.
A single person discount would reduce this liability to £1,645.59.

A flat would probably be in Band B.
Band B in Seaford is £1,919.85.

Therefore, if a single person in Seaford moved from their house into a flat, that person would be liable for more Council Tax than they would have been liable for had they stayed in the house and the discount was still in place.

Check your Council Tax band - Lewes and Eastbourne Councils

Because tax in the UK is stupid; though that's not exactly a rare thing, it's just stupider than usual here. Council tax and NI are stupider than most. Governments are afraid to touch tax though, because there will always be winners and losers, and therefore very angry people who won't vote for you again. That's why we have this ridiculous faffing about with bonus payments and discounts on existing taxes instead.

 

[PTK]

you never

I did. That old bloke was me.

 

[PTK]

Because tax in the UK is stupid; though that's not exactly a rare thing, it's just stupider than usual here. Council tax and NI are stupider than most. Governments are afraid to touch tax though, because there will always be winners and losers, and therefore very angry people who won't vote for you again. That's why we have this ridiculous faffing about with bonus payments and discounts on existing taxes instead.

The rumours are, though, that the government is planning to change council tax, by abolishing the 25% discount for single occupants. Which is the opposite of the way things ought to go. There ought to be a 50% discount for single occupants.

 

[Chz]

There ought to be a 50% discount for single occupants.

Why on earth should there be? Single people don't use half the council services that two people do. If that's fair, then likewise 6-person households should also pay 125% council tax?
There does need to be a council tax discount for lower earners, but "oh you're single, here's a fat discount" is a shit and unfair way to do it.
(Labour proposition is still shit because they're not replacing it with anything)

 

[two sheds]

I did. That old bloke was me.

Well the FT does get a good writeup for relatively impartial coverage.

 

[Wkdloz]

Why on earth should there be? Single people don't use half the council services that two people do. If that's fair, then likewise 6-person households should also pay 125% council tax?
There does need to be a council tax discount for lower earners, but "oh you're single, here's a fat discount" is a shit and unfair way to do it.
(Labour proposition is still shit because they're not replacing it with anything)

If adults surely 600% in total.

 

[MickiQ]

If adults surely 600% in total.

That idea's already been tried it was called the poll tax and went down like a lead balloon.

 

[Wkdloz]

That idea's already been tried it was called the poll tax and went down like a lead balloon.

So it did because the poll tax was just as unfair as the present system but wouldn't take an Einstein to devise a better system.