Nationalism?
- Thread starter Stanley Edwards
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Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Ive blocked 3 posters as far as i can remember. And Ive taken the DPRK route and decided due to the nature of their offences their names shall not be spoken of .
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Casually Red said: Cultural nationalism becomes an issue when native culture has been decimated or threatened by colonialism . Culture is part and parcel of peoples sovereignty , sovereignty part and parcel of national struggles . The difference between Jose Marti and Britney Spears and Coca Cola , Sean ORiada and Rudyard Kipling ..
I don’t agree with your syllogism. You are trying to argue that because culture is part and parcel of people’s sovereignty, and sovereignty is part and parcel of national struggles, that therefore culture equals national struggles. But each link in your chain is faulty. Your premise is no premise, and your conclusion does not follow from it.
First, you are not defining your terms, and this leads either to flabby logic or sleight of hand. Yes, people have culture, and different people have different culture. Yes, that is part of being human, however cultural freedom of people is not the same as the notion of A People used by the state to construct a national identity. Culture and nation are not the same thing. Cultures can and do overlap national boundaries, and they can be myriad within those boundaries.
Of course culture is used by nationalists. They use it to impose a unity of interest that is supposed to trump class solidarity. The creation of a national culture is a necessary part of nationalism. An official language, a mythology, a nation-building myth is needed. Culture precedes the state, but because the nation and the cultures within its polity are neither homogenous within the state nor contiguous with the state’s boundaries, the myths are put in place. Your next link falls.
Sovereignty is part and parcel of national struggles? Whose sovereignty? Whose interests? A nation is not a homogenous group with unity of interest. The lie is given to this supposed commonality of interests by the existence of privileged minorities within the nation. Even a nation under colonial rule. Merely mentioning sovereignty does not wish away those class divisions.
Those are the polarities you set up are hilarious, by the way. Either Jose Marti or Britney Spears? That’s like me saying Scotland has a better culture than Ireland because Burns is better than the Jedward twins.
Because imperialism and colonialism also has its own brand of culture and cultural values it wishes to impose on those who stand against it, and those dominated by imperialism and colonialism invariably have their own national inferiority complexes, its bred into them very deliberately .
That’s gobbledegook. There is no umbrella, one-size-fits-all imperialist and colonialist brand of culture. There are imperialist cultures, but they are particular not universal. You should actually read Fanon, it would help you out here.
You cant always eparate culture from the overall national struggle, because your own struggle is different to other peoples, despite other similarities .
What?
Youre part of the culturally dominant western world, your culture isnt under threat .
Am I? Should I apologise for my role in slavery or the Irish Potato Famine? And what do you know about my culture? What, out of interest, do you think my culture is? Do you know? Am I a 55 year old native Doric speaker from the North East of Scotland? Am I a gay Gaelic-speaking teenager from Lewis, who left home when his strict Wee Free parents disowned him? Am I a third generation Asian Scot, who doesn’t speak the Hindi his mother speaks, or the Gujarati his paternal grandparents speak?
You don’t know. My culture is not this universal imperialist culture. That beast doesn’t exist. It is a figment of your inability to define terms.
It however is often a threat to those who stand against the dominant powers, a means of absordbing and subjugating them .
Of course. Welsh Not. Etc. But you’re just throwing in a non sequitur. It has no logical connection with your previous sentence.
To quote Fanon To speak means to be in a position to use a certain syntax, to grasp the morphology of this or that language, but it means above all to assume a culture, to support the weight of a civilization"
To quote Fanon and then go on to make a point unrelated to the quotation, you mean.
So , to assert ones own territorial, economic and political independence from the dominant and have your own alternative values of what constitutes civilisation ,culture can also play a role in that , often an important one .
And nationalism is the way the ruling class occludes class differences and asserts its own power. And it is quite capable of using national liberation struggles to do so.
Where Id agree with you though is that if ones politics are somehow solely dominated by culture , particularly a monoculture, then the pitfalls and potential for reactionary positions are obvious .
I don’t remember saying that, so you’re not agreeing with me.
I never called you a colonialist or even hinted at it .
You said I am “part of the culturally dominant western world”, and that my “culture isnt under threat”. You then went on to say: “ It however is often a threat to those who stand against the dominant powers, a means of absordbing and subjugating them “.
Do you know what your point is, or not?
Why didnt you just ask me that straight out and Id be happy to answer you . Im not a cultural nationalist, but culture does indeed play one role in my overall political view . Thats related to location , history and the specific issues pertaining to my situation that just arent applicable to your own . Just as issues of your political imperatives dont always pertain to mine .
You are a cultural nationalist, and have argued so above.
to clarify, in my experience leftists from western europe have an understandably averse reaction to anything nationalist, due to the negative role reactionary nationalism has played in their own ruling classes long history of misdeeds . And therefore often react extremely negatively to nationalism in any guise from any quarter .
That’s nice of you to tear the scales of my false consciousness from my eyes, oh all-seeing wise one.
youve just completely ignored my posts were i explained all this stuff from my point of view .
Your posts are often incoherent, but since you insist, I’ve gone through them bit by bit.
And have also completely turned the rest of what i said arse about face .
Where?
It strikes me just want to argue for arguments sake about stuff i never even said .
No, I got into this because you are confusing culture and nation, two very different entities.
Ive pointed to culture merely in an overall context of sovereignty and anti imperialism as a factor in some struggles, not some overall determinant .
Does that actually make sense? Try putting it another way.
Ive fully agreed with you that dominance of cultural issues has obvious pitfalls, ive said nothing about state and culture being one, and never suggested that cultures are confined to states .
No, you are saying the nation and culture are the same. They aren’t. The nation is a construct of the state. You are misreading me.
your plainly a blind cunt too
And you are using disablist insults.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I'm happy for the record to speak for itself. I'm not the one throwing around "blind cunt". Which, incidentally, is pretty appalling. You should be ashamed.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
if any blind people have been offended at the sight of my post my humblest apologies to them
otherwise your repeated deflection is duly noted..again
otherwise your repeated deflection is duly noted..again
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
For what it's worth, that seems like a pretty fair summary to me.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I see. Oh the ironing.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
fuck me write a fucking book....jesus christ how in the name of fuck am i supposed to answer all that lot .
jesus, ill pick off the bite sized pieces otherwise ill be here all night.
no im not, im saying that in some instances it plays a role in national struggle . And Ive said that quite clearly . And from Belfast to Basqueland thats undeniable . Your being wilfully ignorant here and basing the rest of your rubbish on this deliberately false construct .
no im fucking not, not at any time. Straw man , deliberately constructed falsehood.
no i havent, not at any time .
just so were clear here..your seriously arguing that neither nationalism nor culture should play a role in national liberation struggles ? are you seriously arguing that ?
I could in turn argue that theres been no shortage of leftist twats in Ireland who argue imperialism should not be challenged..much less its existence admitted to..on the basis its divisive to the class struggle . And that therefore because the imperialists and the ruling have supported and utilised a basket of leftists from BICO to the Workers party therefore socialism is pro imperialism . However that would be a twats argument . But its the logic of yours.
no Im not. Cultural issues..namely of the gaelic variety..make up merely one aspect of my nationalism. That does not make me a cultural nationalist . Much less a fucking racist, you disingenuous twat. Effectively youve just dismissed about 150 years of seperatist struggle..or more.. in Ireland as reactionary racism with your shit logic. Basques too . And pretty much any struggle were the colonised have asserted their own culture and language in the face of the dominant colonist one.
I cant be arsed with the rest of that tome . To outline the entire false premise youve based your argument on is sufficient.
jesus, ill pick off the bite sized pieces otherwise ill be here all night.
no im not, im saying that in some instances it plays a role in national struggle . And Ive said that quite clearly . And from Belfast to Basqueland thats undeniable . Your being wilfully ignorant here and basing the rest of your rubbish on this deliberately false construct .
no im fucking not, not at any time. Straw man , deliberately constructed falsehood.
no i havent, not at any time .
just so were clear here..your seriously arguing that neither nationalism nor culture should play a role in national liberation struggles ? are you seriously arguing that ?
I could in turn argue that theres been no shortage of leftist twats in Ireland who argue imperialism should not be challenged..much less its existence admitted to..on the basis its divisive to the class struggle . And that therefore because the imperialists and the ruling have supported and utilised a basket of leftists from BICO to the Workers party therefore socialism is pro imperialism . However that would be a twats argument . But its the logic of yours.
no Im not. Cultural issues..namely of the gaelic variety..make up merely one aspect of my nationalism. That does not make me a cultural nationalist . Much less a fucking racist, you disingenuous twat. Effectively youve just dismissed about 150 years of seperatist struggle..or more.. in Ireland as reactionary racism with your shit logic. Basques too . And pretty much any struggle were the colonised have asserted their own culture and language in the face of the dominant colonist one.
I cant be arsed with the rest of that tome . To outline the entire false premise youve based your argument on is sufficient.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
if you want to see laboured reading see what happens if i unignore and the trolling, insults and nitpicking that ensues. Those who i have on the ignore list know it and shouldnt be replying to my posts . Have a go at them for doing it and dont be trying to tell me who i should be engaging with, thanks very much.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
you'll be here all night regardless, just like the rest of us, fiddling away our existences on a minor message board. To think that the ascent of man has come to this. When the first protazoa and single celled organisms learned to live with mitochondria, slowly became multi celled organisms and swam the seas before putting on a reptillian suit and emerging onto land then suffering die backs, ice ages, internecine blood fueds and marillion. And now here we are, on a saturday morning.
Casually Red said:
But that's how it works. Nit picking makes it what it is. It means those who talk shite are brought to task. Do you think I've never been on the receiving end of it? It forces people to re-evaluate their positions. We learn things. Circumventing it just exposes you to the accusation that you're entrenched in your view and won't countenance anything else. What's even the point in being on a board at all if you don't like your position to be tested?
Wow, thats desperately sad. Ireland will get out of this recession eventually. You need to have better faith in your country - i was in the pub earlier with pals of mine talking about this situation, and its desperate but not destitute. Ireland is in dire straits but it will recover, like all cyclical processes do. We still have the best education system in the world, fantastic schools, teachers, and the Irish language is alive and well, thriving in the centre of Dublin. You seem to have little appreciation of your forefathers which i find heartbtreaking. There are many men of 30 years of age that died for your freedom. Being a republic, today, that in itself is a sacred thing.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Is it rational to apply tribal emotion to a football club?
purves grundy
ambient clown remix
It's fascinating, and depressing, watching the rise of nationalism here in Burma. I'll write about it sometime.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
No harm in it, it's entertaining, strong social dimension, ritualized warfare....I'd say yes, totally rational. Though very boring in my opinion.
Walked past a bunch of hyped up fans once, one of them had his jaw locked in a grimace, all twitchy... 'Chel-Say! Chel-Say!' etc. It was like watching someone on drugs (would have been alcohol at most but you could see the tribalism in it as if laced with speed). Obviously tribal emotion for a football team can be problematic. Still, outlet.
Going from that sort of basic group-chanting one-big-voice heart thumping ancestor-owing drumbeat state of mind to standing in a big round-roofed building and singing how Britons never never never shall be slaves is... well its the same emotional state, but with more and more abstracted stuff piled on top of it.
Talking about standing up for the 'national interest' and joining the military being considered 'serving my country' are all very weak arguments in my opinion that now become pretty effective when dealing with people off their nut on heady powerful tribal emotion.
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danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I can't do right for doing wrong, with you, can I? First you say I'm selectively answering your posts and I've "completely ignored" your "posts were i explained all this stuff", and I'm a "blind cunt" for doing it, but now that I've paid attention to all your posts, you don't like that either.
How about you put a little asterisk next to the points you'd like me pay particular attention to?
steeplejack
trapped lbw for a duck
Casually Red's "performance" on here has been like watching an empty wardrobe disintegrate as it crashes down a long flight of stone stairs.
Embarrassing.
Embarrassing.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Casually Red wrote: no im not, im saying that in some instances it plays a role in national struggle . And Ive said that quite clearly . And from Belfast to Basqueland thats undeniable . Your being wilfully ignorant here and basing the rest of your rubbish on this deliberately false construct .
In the first post of mine, where I distinguish culture from nation, and define nation, you replied saying:
theyre way more than that . They also encompass people, with cultures, languages, civilisations, resources, history, a sense of solidarity . Administrative constructs are just one small aspect of nationhood and its massive mistake to simply categorise a nation thus . Imho.
It is to that view of “nation” that I address my disagreement with you. Culture pre-dates nationhood. Cultures and nations are different things. Nations are arbitrary expanses that a ruling class managed to conquer, encompass and enclose. There can be no true solidarity based on that. I have no affinity with the Duke of Buccleuch because I am a Scot. We share no culture, in any real sense. Even his tongue is not mine.
It is a ruse of the ruling class that nationhood is the unit of human culture experience, but nations are not homogenous.
no im fucking not, not at any time. Straw man , deliberately constructed falsehood.
Yes you are, you do so above. When you say that nationhood is more than an administrative construct, that it is about all those things you think it is and I think it isn't. That's where our disagreement lies, man.
You quote me saying: “And nationalism is the way the ruling class occludes class differences and asserts its own power. And it is quite capable of using national liberation struggles to do so.”
just so were clear here..your seriously arguing that neither nationalism nor culture should play a role in national liberation struggles ? are you seriously arguing that ?
No. You have proven your comprehension skills to be lacking. Read again what you quoted.
I could in turn argue that theres been no shortage of leftist twats in Ireland who argue imperialism should not be challenged..
Then take it up with them.
much less its existence admitted to..on the basis its divisive to the class struggle . And that therefore because the imperialists and the ruling have supported and utilised a basket of leftists from BICO to the Workers party therefore socialism is pro imperialism . However that would be a twats argument . But its the logic of yours.
No. You’re just making stuff up now.
no Im not. Cultural issues..namely of the gaelic variety..make up merely one aspect of my nationalism. That does not make me a cultural nationalist . Much less a fucking racist, you disingenuous twat.
I didn’t call you a racist, so the disingenuity is all yours. I did call you a cultural nationalist, though, because that’s what you are. Do you think the nation encompasses a culture? That a nation possesses some indefinable thing; this "way more than that" element that you hold up? For me it isn't there. For you it is. That's why you're a cultural nationalist and I'm not.
Effectively youve just dismissed about 150 years of seperatist struggle..or more.. in Ireland as reactionary racism with your shit logic.
No, I didn’t. Show me exactly where you think I did so.
Basques too . And pretty much any struggle were the colonised have asserted their own culture and language in the face of the dominant colonist one.
No, I didn’t. I find it astonishing that you claim to have read Frantz Fanon. Your position seems to be based on a garbled summary that you haven’t understood.
For me, culture is an integral part of human existence. I said that from the beginning. Without culture, we are not human. Humanity, in all its glory, is a rich and varied tapestry of culture. Of language, music, literature, customs, ideas, mores, food and so on. This is to be celebrated.
However, those things are not and must not be identified with nationhood. Nations arose long after the cultures they sought to harness. The identification of culture with nationhood is a sleight of hand, and one that has so baffled you still, that you can't tell when you’re meaning one or the other.
Should subjugated people have a right to assert their autonomy? Of course. But do not confuse that with saying that any national liberation movement should be supported, regardless of what institutions it intends to install. National liberation is not an article of faith, it is an event. Just as the nation being reasserted is a polity. That polity is not the people, far less is it their cultural life.
