danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I think you're in dangerous territory.
Nationalism?
- Thread starter Stanley Edwards
- Start date
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Im discussing it with you as youve said very clearly he has said exactly what you wanted to say, and your in full agreement with it . You replied to me with no further questions your honour and it's what I thought I had adequately conveyed in the post of mine that you responded to
So Ive no alternative but to respond thus . You havent said anything else to me to reply to . And I can assure you Ive no intention of debating via seance with you being Derek Acorah . My point is simply that nations consist of people, thats what theyre constructed out of . Not simply administrative bits of paper .
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The leading nationalist thinker on u75 writes the above - this after urging people to join their local nationalist organisations.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
well your a western orientated leftist and thats been their orthodox view and probably always will be, given their own nations colonial roles . So its hardly a surprise . The Cuban revolution began as a nationalist uprising though , no getting away from that.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Lol one trick CR.
It's you're btw
It's you're btw
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
An occidentalist right-winger - great. Just what the world needs right now.
Fuck the local nationalists.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Blimey - that makes you a brit imperialist. In this nationalists world.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
You could try engaging with the post you quoted. I said to White Rabbit: "How are you using the word "culture"? Culture is an unavoidable part of human existence; we can't have no culture".
That point is fundamental to my view. We are social animals, and culture is indivisible from what we are as a species. We have achieved what we have through biology-and-culture.
So, I do not deny culture. What I do deplore is when culture and polity become one. That worries me intensely. I am, however, capable of distinguishing between cultural nationalism and civic nationalism. I support Scottish independence, and will vote Yes - barring any worrying shift by the SNP towards cultural nationalism, or moving of the goalposts on pragmatic issues like Trident. But I am not a nationalist, and do not support independence because I see any greater connection between a working class Scot and a Scottish captain of business than between the Scottish working class and the English working class, and so on.
Of course I agree with what butchers has said on the matter: we both come from the same political tradition. I said "no more questions" in the belief that you could read his posts, as I could. Had I known there was a beef, I'd have put it another way.
Now get off your cross, and address the substantive issues.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I'm a colonialist, am I? Nice. As it happens I'm a long-time admirer of Paulo Freire, and to some extent Frantz Fanon, so don't give me that guff. The danger you are in is eliding culture and polity. I'm not calling you a racist, I'm trying to find out if you're a cultural nationalist. I'm guessing yes, but I'm open to persuasion.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
I didnt need to engage with that part of your post because I agreed with it . It was the other bit I took issue with .
your starting to use some unnecessarily cuntish language now but Ill let it slide .
Cultural nationalism becomes an issue when native culture has been decimated or threatened by colonialism . Culture is part and parcel of peoples sovereignty , sovereignty part and parcel of national struggles . The difference between Jose Marti and Britney Spears and Coca Cola , Sean ORiada and Rudyard Kipling ..
Because imperialism and colonialism also has its own brand of culture and cultural values it wishes to impose on those who stand against it, and those dominated by imperialism and colonialism invariably have their own national inferiority complexes, its bred into them very deliberately . You cant always seperate culture from the overall national struggle, because your own struggle is different to other peoples, despite other similarities . Youre part of the culturally dominant western world, your culture isnt under threat . It however is often a threat to those who stand against the dominant powers, a means of absordbing and subjugating them .
To quote Fanon To speak means to be in a position to use a certain syntax, to grasp the morphology of this or that language, but it means above all to assume a culture, to support the weight of a civilization"
So , to assert ones own territorial, economic and political independence from the dominant and have your own alternative values of what constitutes civilisation ,culture can also play a role in that , often an important one . Where Id agree with you though is that if ones politics are somehow solely dominated by culture , particularly a monoculture, then the pitfalls and potential for reactionary positions are obvious .
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
I never called you a colonialist or even hinted at it . Wise the fuck up and wind your neck in you overly touchy, paranoid cunt .
see I actually called you that .
Why didnt you just ask me that straight out and Id be happy to answer you . Im not a cultural nationalist, but culture does indeed play one role in my overall political view . Thats related to location , history and the specific issues pertaining to my situation that just arent applicable to your own . Just as issues of your political imperatives dont always pertain to mine .
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Oh god, you're openly racist. And you use Fanon to support that racism. This is just like some hampstead guardian type saying that they don't like the way the white people drink outside - not at tables, and in those ghastly plastic pint glasses.
Come to england.
Come to england.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
to clarify, in my experience leftists from western europe have an understandably averse reaction to anything nationalist, due to the negative role reactionary nationalism has played in their own ruling classes long history of misdeeds . And therefore often react extremely negatively to nationalism in any guise from any quarter .
In no manner shape or form have I tried to hint that youre in any manner a colonialist or in favour of colonialism . I cant see where you got that from , nor indeed any earthly reason why youd assume Id try and insult you like that . I was largely agreeing with part of your posts .
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You'd think people brought up in the benefits of nationalism would be supportive of it. Which is what you actually said, what you always says and what you think. Which might explain why you're a nationalist and Danny isn't.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I see. How would you like this discussion to go? Do you think it's going well so far?
Let's see what we can achieve before Corrie starts again.
You said: "your a western orientated leftist and thats been their orthodox view and probably always will be, given their own nations colonial roles". So, what am I to take from that? My political views are a product of the colonial role of Scotland, are they? Can you explain what you were driving at, if I misunderstood you?
You say you're not a cultural nationalist, but actually your arguments all suggest you are. You say we agree that culture is a fundamental part of human existence. However, for me, the nation and culture should not be confused. Nations are created by states. Nor are nations synonymous with cultures. Cultures overlap state boundaries. National boundaries might have several cultures within them. It is when the state starts to suggest that culture and nation are contiguous that we see race being used to trump class as where interests lie, as the source for solidarity. If you think that Fanon is arguing for the unity of culture and state, then you haven't read him very thoroughly. The quote you chose doesn't mean what you think it means.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
you were the one who started with the insults and now youve just completely ignored my posts were i explained all this stuff from my point of view . And have also completely turned the rest of what i said arse about face . It strikes me just want to argue for arguments sake about stuff i never even said .
balls, your focussing on the cultural issue in a half arsed being right on the internet competition . Ive pointed to culture merely in an overall context of sovereignty and anti imperialism as a factor in some struggles, not some overall determinant . Ive fully agreed with you that dominance of cultural issues has obvious pitfalls, ive said nothing about state and culture being one, and never suggested that cultures are confined to states . Take your strawmen elsewhere and get back to me when youve decided to debate in an honest fashion .
eta
i clarified some posts up, your plainly a blind cunt too
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Is this how you operate? Throw around disablist language in the hope you can get me to retaliate and you can act the injured party, and then put me on ignore?
Sorry, not interested.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Does he only interact with people who agree with him? I must have missed those threads.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
ein volk?
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Next time you're up his arse? Hope you're in a good union.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
We're not all sat around a table chatting, you daft twat.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
i argue with virtually everyone on here, so enough of the shite talk . If ive someone on ignore its for good reason
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
retaliate ?? you began by telling me to get off my cross,which i didnt rise to, then proceeded to insult me as a racist a number of times...now its disablist nafter i tell you i clarified the post you decided to ignore
you can go fuck yourself pretty much if those are the stunts you want to pull rather than debate issues .
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
i dont want to go on about it, its a cunts behaviour to be outlining a scenario where the other party isnt part of the conversation. its how it is and thats all
