Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

My electricity bill has just tripled: how about yours? Alternative suppliers?

How have you made it airtight(ish)? Mine is 1850s and I've done what I can but suspect there are gaps in the fabric somewhere although I can't really see any. Also is that heating air or water/underfloor heating? I think you've said but I forgot :oops:

Have said before but Ground Elder has ground source they cost around £12,000 I think but his is shared between them and neighbours.
 
Since the beginning of the month I've been taking daily OWL meter readings, just . . . yunno, because I have

I'm not a patient sort of chap so I've completed this month with some "projections"

Starting from a Bulb estimate of my coming years electrical usage of 5200KWh against my projections, which are based on this month only and extrapolated, are closer to 2800KWh - granted this isn't a particularly cold month, but we don't really heat using electricity and I've got spring, summer and autumn months to built up a bit of breathing room

The trend line for the month is down (from a daily 9KWh to 6KWh) - I should still be able to see "some" improvement in the coming months, but nothing on this scale as there's nothing "big" left to switch off - I would be very happy indeed with a "warm weather" usage of "around" 5KWh daily

So, whilst this isn't what the original thread started off life as (sorry editor) but it has been a journey of discovery and learning for me
 
Just found this helpful graph on the OVO site, showing the estimated use in 2021 as supplied by SSE.

How the hell did they almost double my usage between June, which was probably about right, and July, that's completely bonkers!

Checking back on 2020 my usage goes up by about 25% in winter, so take that June figure of 132 + 25% = 165 for December, not 375!

View attachment 316078

Since there is no data before June, I'm wondering if the June figure only covers part of the month of June rather than the entire month?
 
Those kinds of graphs you can find on suppliers' websites are a bit useless mostly I think. In my observations they are based on sparse datapoints, few of them even real readings, and they probably make a whole load of assumptions about your house type, usage habits and so on which are likely to be quite wrong.
 
Say, for instance, "one" didn't have access to such a sizeable "garden" as you've got for your system . . . is there a break point where a ground heat pump isn't really viable?

Only we've got a south facing garden, on a pretty steep slope, and it's a funny shape, but size wise, best guess 40 yards by 40 yards, would a system like this be viable

And how the hell do you bury pipes 4' into the ground, please tell me you didn't hand dig them in, surely, or was that part of the installation by a company?

And, super cheeky I realise, but would you be prepared to give an indication of cost and / or break even time . . . a simple Fuck Off HV is a perfectly acceptable answer btw

A ground source array of 40x40 yards could power a ground source heat pump of about 15kW output (ballpark) (possibly less depending on just how weird a shape), which is fairly decent and exceeds the requirement of most houses - whether it would be sufficient for yours specifically would depend on the energy requirements of your house of course.

You can use boreholes instead of horizontal trenches as well, which massively reduces the ground area required, but is more expensive to install.

To dig the pipes in you get Danny and Steve to come by with their 5 ton diggers and dig ten 60m by 1.2m deep by 1m wide trenches, 3m apart, in a sort of fan pattern. The pipes are then laid as 10 loops, running up one edge of the bottom of each trench and back the other - so it’s 1m between the flow and return of each loop, and 2m to the next loop - this is so you don’t freeze the ground!

Cost was about £5k for the digging, £15k for the equipment, and £5k for the labour. Breakeven - well, lots of ways of looking at it. The simplest would be just assuming that all heat and hot water was powered by direct electricity. For an estimated annual requirement of 22MWh (which is what it’s estimated at - haven’t actually finished renovating it yet) the cost differentials per year are something like:

At 30p/kWh and COP of 5.4(!): saving of about £5.5k/year.

At 30p/kWh and COP of 4(more realistic): saving of about £5k/year.

At 50p/kWh (where it looks like it will be in autumn) and COP of 4: saving of about £8k/year.

So 3 to 5 years or so, on those figures.

However of course on purely cost grounds you’d not use electricity as your primary energy source, so that’s not really fair. Oil-fired heating is standard round here, so would be a fairer comparison pound for pound. It would have cost about £5k to install an oil boiler and tank etc, so the cost difference to use would be £20k vs the £25k cost of the gshp.

Heating oil is currently about 10p/kWh, so actually cheaper than gshp at COP of 4 and 50p/kWh electricity (12.5p/kWh), so one would never break even. Who knows what the price of oil (which isn’t subject to the energy cost cap I believe) will be at that point though? If it doubles from here (and it’s already very high historically) then one would get an annual saving of about £1,500, so about 13 years. But trying to guess relative oil and electricity prices 13 years into the future is a fools game anyway!

Also - there are govt grants and paybacks for installing low-carbon systems including gshps. How much one gets (paid quarterly over 7 years) depends on a complex calculation based on the energy requirements, energy savings, insulation level of the house and other things - I have applied for it, but don’t know yet how much I’m going to get. It could theoretically be as much as £30k - which would of course make the whole thing free (making a profit in fact!). We shall see.

And of course the main point here, really, is to de-carbonise the energy requirements of the house; the comparisons with heating oil above therefore are missing a term which expresses how much ‘value’ to put on that. I think it’s extremely important and am therefore willing to pay somewhat over the odds to help achieve it (and recognise that I’m very lucky to be in a position to be able to choose so - but it’s the people who can who have to for all our sakes).

When I find out what the govt contribution is going to be I will update here.
 
Thinking about the COP again - I suppose the way to look at it is that heat isn't being generated it's just being transferred around. It takes advantage of the cooling effect of a liquid evaporating to become gas and the heating effect of a gas being compressed (then pushed into the condenser on the back of the fridge to condense it back into a liquid).
 
A ground source array of 40x40 yards could power a ground source heat pump of about 15kW output (ballpark) (possibly less depending on just how weird a shape), which is fairly decent and exceeds the requirement of most houses - whether it would be sufficient for yours specifically would depend on the energy requirements of your house of course.

You can use boreholes instead of horizontal trenches as well, which massively reduces the ground area required, but is more expensive to install.

To dig the pipes in you get Danny and Steve to come by with their 5 ton diggers and dig ten 60m by 1.2m deep by 1m wide trenches, 3m apart, in a sort of fan pattern. The pipes are then laid as 10 loops, running up one edge of the bottom of each trench and back the other - so it’s 1m between the flow and return of each loop, and 2m to the next loop - this is so you don’t freeze the ground!

Cost was about £5k for the digging, £15k for the equipment, and £5k for the labour. Breakeven - well, lots of ways of looking at it. The simplest would be just assuming that all heat and hot water was powered by direct electricity. For an estimated annual requirement of 22MWh (which is what it’s estimated at - haven’t actually finished renovating it yet) the cost differentials per year are something like:

At 30p/kWh and COP of 5.4(!): saving of about £5.5k/year.

At 30p/kWh and COP of 4(more realistic): saving of about £5k/year.

At 50p/kWh (where it looks like it will be in autumn) and COP of 4: saving of about £8k/year.

So 3 to 5 years or so, on those figures.

However of course on purely cost grounds you’d not use electricity as your primary energy source, so that’s not really fair. Oil-fired heating is standard round here, so would be a fairer comparison pound for pound. It would have cost about £5k to install an oil boiler and tank etc, so the cost difference to use would be £20k vs the £25k cost of the gshp.

Heating oil is currently about 10p/kWh, so actually cheaper than gshp at COP of 4 and 50p/kWh electricity (12.5p/kWh), so one would never break even. Who knows what the price of oil (which isn’t subject to the energy cost cap I believe) will be at that point though? If it doubles from here (and it’s already very high historically) then one would get an annual saving of about £1,500, so about 13 years. But trying to guess relative oil and electricity prices 13 years into the future is a fools game anyway!

Also - there are govt grants and paybacks for installing low-carbon systems including gshps. How much one gets (paid quarterly over 7 years) depends on a complex calculation based on the energy requirements, energy savings, insulation level of the house and other things - I have applied for it, but don’t know yet how much I’m going to get. It could theoretically be as much as £30k - which would of course make the whole thing free (making a profit in fact!). We shall see.

And of course the main point here, really, is to de-carbonise the energy requirements of the house; the comparisons with heating oil above therefore are missing a term which expresses how much ‘value’ to put on that. I think it’s extremely important and am therefore willing to pay somewhat over the odds to help achieve it (and recognise that I’m very lucky to be in a position to be able to choose so - but it’s the people who can who have to for all our sakes).

When I find out what the govt contribution is going to be I will update here.
That's amazingly generous of you to share this . . . thank you . . . so, HOW did you find out about this stuff? Is there an Idiots Guide to this kinda thing or did you just "do you own research"
 
How have you made it airtight(ish)? Mine is 1850s and I've done what I can but suspect there are gaps in the fabric somewhere although I can't really see any. Also is that heating air or water/underfloor heating? I think you've said but I forgot :oops:

Have said before but Ground Elder has ground source they cost around £12,000 I think but his is shared between them and neighbours.

Heating is primarily underfloor water, most efficient for use with a heat pump (as the temperature of the heating water doesn’t have to be very high), along with a few radiators in some first floor rooms.

We’ve made it airtight by - and not wanting to sound flippant - filling in all the holes! The shell is basically 2 foot thick stone walls, so these have been repointed (laboriously, with traditional line mortar). We dug out the dirt floors to a depth of 30” and damp proofed, sealed and insulated with 12” of urethane foam board. Ceilings (no loft space) were lined with membrane (taped at joins), then boarded (again taped) then 8” of urethane foam boards (with more tape!) then boarded again and skimmed.

The trickiest bit was the join between the roof and walls - basically just the one resting on the other in the original construction - this was just a case of mortaring inside and out as and where the gaps were.

I imagine there will be more draftproofing to do as we discover leaks. The storms of last month were very useful though in identifying what tiny holes a howling gale can find to sneak in through!
 
Air source heat pumps are also either air-air so blowing out warm air or air-water so feeding into radiators. As prunus said though air-water are best for underfloor heating because the water isn't as high a temperature as you'd normally feed into radiators.

I'm thinking of air-air but they also need fairly airtight house construction I'm hoping my place will be airtight enough to have the heat pump in the kitchen so that most of the warm air rises up the stairwell to warm upstairs and not just dissipate. That should cost less than a grand though if I can find a quiet enough one (needed as some kind urbanite initially pointed out to me). Only need it for four months of the year in Cornwall, and hopefully some of the electricity will come from the solar panels.
 
Since there is no data before June, I'm wondering if the June figure only covers part of the month of June rather than the entire month?

Nope, that June 2021 SSE figure is about right, i.e. 4.4kWh per day, about the same as I used in the summer of 2020.
Their figures for Jul & Aug 2021 would have me on almost double at 8.06 per day. :facepalm:

Just checked the last 10 weeks and I've averaged 5.69kWh per day, just over 25% more per day compared to June 2021, about right for winter coming into spring.
The SSE figure for Dec 2021 would have me on 12.10 per day. :facepalm:
Because OVO inherited those estimates, they estimated my use from 22/12/21 - 21/3/22 @ 11.34 per day. :facepalm:

Also, checking bills right back to Jan 2020, I've spotted something off the scale for the SSE period 9/1 - 16/4/21 where they estimated I used a whopping 22.46 kWh per day. :facepalm:

SEE estimated meter reading for 16/4/21 was 14201, which is actually 39 higher than my meter reading today, at 14162. :facepalm:

Every SSE bill from Jan 2020 onwards are estimated, despite meter readers coming in at least 3 or 4 times in 2020 & 2021, :facepalm:

I am running out of :facepalm:s now! :D
 
A bit more maths:

9/1/20 - 8/1/21 SEE estimated I used 5.29kWh per day, which is probably slightly high.
9/1/21 - 21/12/21 SEE estimated I used 13.49kWh per day, which is totally bonkers, as my usage between 2020 & 2021 would have barely changed.
 
I imagine there will be more draftproofing to do as we discover leaks. The storms of last month were very useful though in identifying what tiny holes a howling gale can find to sneak in through!
Surprising isn't it. Problem you get is you plug one hole only for the draft to come out somewhere else. :eek: so you end up chasing your tail. :(
 
Air source heat pumps are also either air-air so blowing out warm air or air-water so feeding into radiators. As prunus said though air-water are best for underfloor heating because the water isn't as high a temperature as you'd normally feed into radiators.

I'm thinking of air-air but they also need fairly airtight house construction I'm hoping my place will be airtight enough to have the heat pump in the kitchen so that most of the warm air rises up the stairwell to warm upstairs and not just dissipate. That should cost less than a grand though if I can find a quiet enough one (needed as some kind urbanite initially pointed out to me). Only need it for four months of the year in Cornwall, and hopefully some of the electricity will come from the solar panels.
I have problems with heat it can cause muscle problems and me passing out. I've put a thermostatic mixer valve on the thermal store so the water to the rads is limited to ~43°C which is about the temp from heat pumps (40°C?). Heats the house perfectly well and I've not had to bleed the radiators in the 4 years I've had it fitted. :hmm: :)
 
A ground source array of 40x40 yards could power a ground source heat pump of about 15kW output (ballpark) (possibly less depending on just how weird a shape), which is fairly decent and exceeds the requirement of most houses - whether it would be sufficient for yours specifically would depend on the energy requirements of your house of course.

You can use boreholes instead of horizontal trenches as well, which massively reduces the ground area required, but is more expensive to install.

To dig the pipes in you get Danny and Steve to come by with their 5 ton diggers and dig ten 60m by 1.2m deep by 1m wide trenches, 3m apart, in a sort of fan pattern. The pipes are then laid as 10 loops, running up one edge of the bottom of each trench and back the other - so it’s 1m between the flow and return of each loop, and 2m to the next loop - this is so you don’t freeze the ground!

Cost was about £5k for the digging, £15k for the equipment, and £5k for the labour. Breakeven - well, lots of ways of looking at it. The simplest would be just assuming that all heat and hot water was powered by direct electricity. For an estimated annual requirement of 22MWh (which is what it’s estimated at - haven’t actually finished renovating it yet) the cost differentials per year are something like:

At 30p/kWh and COP of 5.4(!): saving of about £5.5k/year.

At 30p/kWh and COP of 4(more realistic): saving of about £5k/year.

At 50p/kWh (where it looks like it will be in autumn) and COP of 4: saving of about £8k/year.

So 3 to 5 years or so, on those figures.

However of course on purely cost grounds you’d not use electricity as your primary energy source, so that’s not really fair. Oil-fired heating is standard round here, so would be a fairer comparison pound for pound. It would have cost about £5k to install an oil boiler and tank etc, so the cost difference to use would be £20k vs the £25k cost of the gshp.

Heating oil is currently about 10p/kWh, so actually cheaper than gshp at COP of 4 and 50p/kWh electricity (12.5p/kWh), so one would never break even. Who knows what the price of oil (which isn’t subject to the energy cost cap I believe) will be at that point though? If it doubles from here (and it’s already very high historically) then one would get an annual saving of about £1,500, so about 13 years. But trying to guess relative oil and electricity prices 13 years into the future is a fools game anyway!

Also - there are govt grants and paybacks for installing low-carbon systems including gshps. How much one gets (paid quarterly over 7 years) depends on a complex calculation based on the energy requirements, energy savings, insulation level of the house and other things - I have applied for it, but don’t know yet how much I’m going to get. It could theoretically be as much as £30k - which would of course make the whole thing free (making a profit in fact!). We shall see.

And of course the main point here, really, is to de-carbonise the energy requirements of the house; the comparisons with heating oil above therefore are missing a term which expresses how much ‘value’ to put on that. I think it’s extremely important and am therefore willing to pay somewhat over the odds to help achieve it (and recognise that I’m very lucky to be in a position to be able to choose so - but it’s the people who can who have to for all our sakes).

When I find out what the govt contribution is going to be I will update here.
How do you heat the water tank to >60°C if the heat pump output is only 40°C?
Won't there also be the energy required for this extra heating to be factored in? :hmm:
 
Since the beginning of the month I've been taking daily OWL meter readings, just . . . yunno, because I have

I'm not a patient sort of chap so I've completed this month with some "projections"

Starting from a Bulb estimate of my coming years electrical usage of 5200KWh against my projections, which are based on this month only and extrapolated, are closer to 2800KWh - granted this isn't a particularly cold month, but we don't really heat using electricity and I've got spring, summer and autumn months to built up a bit of breathing room

The trend line for the month is down (from a daily 9KWh to 6KWh) - I should still be able to see "some" improvement in the coming months, but nothing on this scale as there's nothing "big" left to switch off - I would be very happy indeed with a "warm weather" usage of "around" 5KWh daily

So, whilst this isn't what the original thread started off life as (sorry editor) but it has been a journey of discovery and learning for me
It will be interesting to see how it comes down towards the peak of summer and increases again. I am suspecting the fact you will be using less energy to light indoors you'll see a dip by a rise and then you might feel more comfortable with your daily yearly averages!
 
I love this thread. I don’t understand all of it (mental block against all things electricity and physics) but what I do get is very interesting and informative and particularly useful. Thanks all.
 
Arghhh.

I am still going round and turning lights etc off in otherwise empty rooms after other people.
I know all the indoor ones are LEDs but that's not the point.

Also, the outside lights aren't [yet] all LEDs and the floods eat power.

Turned the thermostats [room & rads] down again.
We have plants and small animals that will cark if they get too cold overnight.
Planning on similar with the hot water, but gradually ...
Someone should make replacement thermostat dials with the temperatures printed as 2C above the actual :hmm:

"But I like it at 21C" "Fine, fill your boots, muahahahaha"
 
SEE estimated meter reading for 16/4/21 was 14201, which is actually 39 higher than my meter reading today, at 14162. :facepalm:

I've been out much of today, back home I've now calculated the total SES/OVO have charged me in electricity usage from 16/4/21 up to the last bill dated 21/3/22, excluding standing charges, and it's a whopping £807.20 over payment, the actual amount will be slightly higher as my meter has still not reached that estimated reading on 16/4/21.

Looking forward to getting that credited to my account. :thumbs:
 
Only need it for four months of the year in Cornwall, and hopefully some of the electricity will come from the solar panels.
Normally need heating in the evening when it's dark so would need some sort of battery storage to do that.

Also depends how much your solar panels generate. Mine are SE facing and produced the grand total of 21.7kW for the whole of January. :(
 
Indeed, mine face SW but still only produced 29 kW in January, average of about 60 kW for the other three months but I'd mainly be using that during the day for the puter.

I'm also not sure about batteries for winter - they're supposed to be deep cycle but I'd have thought running them off empty would damage them.
 
OVO update - finally got to speak to someone in the complaints department, having been told they don't actually take calls last week, it took about 30 minutes of going politely round and round in circles before they gave up and got someone to take my call.

1 - The DD has been reduced back down from £186 to £125, and a stop has been put on the system to prevent that being changed again until the metre dispute is resolved, which she admitted should have been done when I first contacted them early Jan.

2 - She said there was no record in the notes of me calling on 11th & 26th Jan. with readings, nor when I entered it online 17th Mar., nor my call on 18th Mar. I asked her to confirm they record all calls, they do, so she's going to check the call logs to confirm the calls. She has taken all the meter readings given & confirmed receipt of the photo e-mailed last week, so they can now work out my correct estimated current usage, and work out my correct payments going forward, before completing the dispute with SSE, and crediting my account.

3 - She couldn't agree at this point that the complaint was first raised on 11th Jan., and that's when the 8 week limit to resolve the issue should have started, so I compromised and agreed the 8 weeks could start from their e-mail last Mon 21st Mar., which is a partial result, as their e-mail quoted another 12 - 14 weeks.

4 - I have her full name & she taken personal 'ownership' of the complaint & promised it will be totally resolved in basically 7 weeks from today, and once she has checked the phone calls and confirmed that they screwed up, she will be in contact to discuss compensation for their cock-ups, my time wasted & the inconvenience caused.

5 - She understands that if that doesn't happen in that timeframe I will open a complaint with the Energy Ombudsman, which she wants to avoid.

So, still not totally resolved today, which was my negotiation starting position today, but I didn't expect it would be, so I am happy with the DD being reduced and the promise to conclude all this in 7 weeks from today, and I take that as result.

It's been bloody hard work to get to this point, which I can cope with & manage, but plenty of people probably can't, and that's what pisses me off even more TBH.
 
cupid_stunt
Well played, sir.

But a pity that they have let it get to this stage, their motivation seem to be avoiding the EO and getting ££££ into their back accounts, rather than doing the right thing by their customers. I'll bet it takes them right up to the last week they have available to get it resolved.
Given that not everybody has the stamina to go as far as you have done, might I suggest that you notify the EO anyway [in case the EO is unaware of the "shady" tactics in such cases ...
 
OVO update - finally got to speak to someone in the complaints department, having been told they don't actually take calls last week, it took about 30 minutes of going politely round and round in circles before they gave up and got someone to take my call.

1 - The DD has been reduced back down from £186 to £125, and a stop has been put on the system to prevent that being changed again until the metre dispute is resolved, which she admitted should have been done when I first contacted them early Jan.

2 - She said there was no record in the notes of me calling on 11th & 26th Jan. with readings, nor when I entered it online 17th Mar., nor my call on 18th Mar. I asked her to confirm they record all calls, they do, so she's going to check the call logs to confirm the calls. She has taken all the meter readings given & confirmed receipt of the photo e-mailed last week, so they can now work out my correct estimated current usage, and work out my correct payments going forward, before completing the dispute with SSE, and crediting my account.

3 - She couldn't agree at this point that the complaint was first raised on 11th Jan., and that's when the 8 week limit to resolve the issue should have started, so I compromised and agreed the 8 weeks could start from their e-mail last Mon 21st Mar., which is a partial result, as their e-mail quoted another 12 - 14 weeks.

4 - I have her full name & she taken personal 'ownership' of the complaint & promised it will be totally resolved in basically 7 weeks from today, and once she has checked the phone calls and confirmed that they screwed up, she will be in contact to discuss compensation for their cock-ups, my time wasted & the inconvenience caused.

5 - She understands that if that doesn't happen in that timeframe I will open a complaint with the Energy Ombudsman, which she wants to avoid.

So, still not totally resolved today, which was my negotiation starting position today, but I didn't expect it would be, so I am happy with the DD being reduced and the promise to conclude all this in 7 weeks from today, and I take that as result.

It's been bloody hard work to get to this point, which I can cope with & manage, but plenty of people probably can't, and that's what pisses me off even more TBH.
Thanks so much for keeping us up to date with all the fascinating and unique details of your customer services journey.
 
Back
Top Bottom