My electricity bill has just tripled: how about yours? Alternative suppliers?

[prunus]

That's amazingly generous of you to share this . . . thank you . . . so, HOW did you find out about this stuff? Is there an Idiots Guide to this kinda thing or did you just "do you own research"

My pleasure. It’s one of the weaknesses of my personality that I love sharing information.

I did my own research. There’s this bloke called Kevyn on YouTube that has a channel called ‘FREE your(true)self from the clutches of Big NRG!!!!’ And he taught me all I know.

No, not really. I used to be a scientist so researching and working things out is just how I do things. Started with heat pump installers’ websites, then when I’d got the basics (and crucially terminology) from their FAQs and the like, used that to search scientific papers and so on to get the detail. I also learned a lot from just talking to the people putting in the heat pump - there’s no substitute for face to face learning from someone who actually does it - but I find it very very useful to have the background, so that you can ask the right questions, and understand the answers. Plus when it becomes clear you know a bit about the physics and so on, they will answer in a different (and more detailed) way to how they might otherwise.

Happy to try to answer any other questions anyone might have

 

[Artaxerxes]

EDF have been calling and not leaving a message for two weeks. Finally noticed them calling and declined the offer of a smart meter.

 

[prunus]

How do you heat the water tank to >60°C if the heat pump output is only 40°C?
Won't there also be the energy required for this extra heating to be factored in?

The hot water (as in taps) is generally only heated to 50-55C, (as that’s where the efficiency of heat pumps starts to asymptote); it doesn’t ‘bother’ to heat the radiator/underfloor heating water to that temperature, as it’s just not efficient to do so. 35-45C is normal. So the output of the heat pump is modulated according to the end usage - it’s not that it can’t heat above 40C, just that it doesn’t need to for the heating circuits.

Most heat pumps (or the associated hw cylinder) include an immersion heater to a) boost heat when demand is overcoming supply (properly spec’d this shouldn’t happen often) and b) to provide a programmed temporary boost to 60C to kill off legionnaires.

 

[two sheds]

One thing I have to watch with the solar pv heated immersion heater is to watch legionnaires - not been a problem over the last month or so though

I'm tempted to check out wind generator with battery backup for evenings - only need say 1 kWh for the computer and lights perhaps plus heat pump in winter. I'd love a darrieus type they're so elegant but have a suspicion my place is too sheltered by trees

 

[friendofdorothy]

Is it worth switching to Octopus then?

I'm with Octopus and they seem to be quite good (in comparision to EDF, British Gas and others I was with previous) Have to do monthly readings but that seems ok They enable me to alter my own dd amounts easily via the website and they spent the winter encouraging us with lots of tips to save energy and reduce bills.

 

[Sue]

I'm with Octopus and they seem to be quite good (in comparision to EDF, British Gas and others I was with previous) Have to do monthly readings but that seems ok They enable me to alter my own dd amounts easily via the website and they spent the winter encouraging us with lots of tips to save energy and reduce bills.

Also really easy to get your money back if you're in credit.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

Sorry to go off on a slight tangent...we have been told to expect a hike in our electricity bill for the coming year, but worse than that is the service charges. We thought there would be an increase in these charges next year, but an unofficial chat to one of the management committee says they expect a massive rise in charges for the coming year, in part due to the increase in leccy charges.

in a weird way my service charge for the coming year is -£0.70, I suspect next year is where the hit lies.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I did my own research. There’s this bloke called Kevyn on YouTube that has a channel called ‘FREE your(true)self from the clutches of Big NRG!!!!’ And he taught me all I know.

I normally mentally back away when I see the words - 'I did my own research', I knew I didn't need to on this occasion, then the follow-up sentence made me laugh.

 

[StoneRoad]

prunus - a few years ago, I worked at the second major firm of consulting engineers during my time as a Librarian. This firm had quite an interest in "renewables" - the first such firm some years previously had been into wave power developments ... So, I picked up a good deal of information over the years to add to the basic information I gleaned as a student, even earlier. Yes, I know things change & improve, but I have kept an amateur eye on the subject all my life ...

Heat pumps are out for me, despite living in a rural area.
The cost of getting pipework laid as the system would probably have to cross a road is also a barrier ...
I will investigate the borehole variety instead [expect that to be much more costly] but I don't like the noise factor with air source pumps - I've rejected several freezers & 'fridges on that basis !

I live in a National Park - and somewhat adjacent to a world heritage site - which could also be a barrier.
The local rumour mill says that the NP/local council have been "obstructive" in some cases when applications for roof-mounted solar panels were investigated a few years ago. One of the companies near my workshop install them, I'll have a chat with their boss ...
That [official] opposition - if it existed - should have disappeared by now, so that's another option to investigate.

Windmills / wind turbines could well have the same "nimby" magnetism as solar panels ... dig a decent hole around here and you'll probably find a roman at the bottom. There's the route of a roman road within "biscuit toss" of my back garden !

At the moment, the only renewable I can use is homegrown & seasoned firewood for a logburner !

So, we are stuck in the LPG & electric price sinkhole ...

 

[High Voltage]

prunus - a few years ago, I worked at the second major firm of consulting engineers during my time as a Librarian. This firm had quite an interest in "renewables" - the first such firm some years previously had been into wave power developments ... So, I picked up a good deal of information over the years to add to the basic information I gleaned as a student, even earlier. Yes, I know things change & improve, but I have kept an amateur eye on the subject all my life ...

Heat pumps are out for me, despite living in a rural area.
The cost of getting pipework laid as the system would probably have to cross a road is also a barrier ...
I will investigate the borehole variety instead [expect that to be much more costly] but I don't like the noise factor with air source pumps - I've rejected several freezers & 'fridges on that basis !

I live in a National Park - and somewhat adjacent to a world heritage site - which could also be a barrier.
The local rumour mill says that the NP/local council have been "obstructive" in some cases when applications for roof-mounted solar panels were investigated a few years ago. One of the companies near my workshop install them, I'll have a chat with their boss ...
That [official] opposition - if it existed - should have disappeared by now, so that's another option to investigate.

Windmills / wind turbines could well have the same "nimby" magnetism as solar panels ... dig a decent hole around here and you'll probably find a roman at the bottom. There's the route of a roman road within "biscuit toss" of my back garden !

At the moment, the only renewable I can use is homegrown & seasoned firewood for a logburner !

So, we are stuck in the LPG & electric price sinkhole ...

We are pretty much as you - we're in a conservation area , however, there has been several "new builds" allowed as part of the overall development

We have LPG, wood, "some" coal and electricity

Our cottage is built into the side of Mendips (I can stand at the back of the house and the roof line comes down and touches my thigh) - we don't have any windows on the back of the cottage (obviously) and we don't have windows, really, at the two ends, so all light comes in through the, luckily south facing, front

Hmm! time to do some investigating I feel, but who to trust?

 

[two sheds]

I don't like the noise factor with air source pumps - I've rejected several freezers & 'fridges on that basis !

Nearly all I looked at had a noise level of 60 dB or so. No good for inside but with an outside unit could it not be in somewhere that's soundproofed?

And I'll swear I saw one with indoor unit only and with noise level of around 30 dB. I'll try to find it again if you're interested.

 

[Cerv]

apparently every household in the county trying to submit a meter reading at once is more than they're set up to cope with.

‘Bleak Friday’: websites of UK energy suppliers crash in meter reading rush

Customers try to beat 54% price rise, as multiple hikes from council tax to VAT on pub food also come into effect

www.theguardian.com

take a pic of your meter today for a note of the number, and you should be able to submit that later with today's date on it.

 

[pinkmonkey]

prunus

Windmills / wind turbines could well have the same "nimby" magnetism as solar panels ... dig a decent hole around here and you'll probably find a roman at the bottom. There's the route of a roman road within "biscuit toss" of my back garden !

At the moment, the only renewable I can use is homegrown & seasoned firewood for a logburner !

So, we are stuck in the LPG & electric price sinkhole ...

wind turbines are useless unless they’re enormous and up a very tall mast. I had a Rutland wind genny up a 15 foot mast, when I had a mooring on Tottenham marsh (which is exposed and windy for London). I’d get about 4amps in gale force wind and barely anything otherwise. Compare that to 20 or 30 amps for the solar, hell I even get 1 amp off a full moon! I’d then end up switching the genny off overnight in windy weather because of the whirring whining noise. It then actually blew over and I never reinstated it. My solar on the other hand is great - between the equinoxes - Spring and summer we get 100% of our electricity from them. I’m upgrading to lifepo4 batteries this year and hoping to extend that.

 

[StoneRoad]

Nearly all I looked at had a noise level of 60 dB or so. No good for inside but with an outside unit could it not be in somewhere that's soundproofed?

And I'll swear I saw one with indoor unit only and with noise level of around 30 dB. I'll try to find it again if you're interested.

Not just the amount, but the frequencies & harmonics are the problem.

I have a similar difficulty with vacuum cleaners, about the only ones I can tolerate are the Numatic "Henries"- even with ear plugs & defenders for other makes. We got a Boss Vax a few years ago for dog hair removal, and I have a real problem with using it, often the result includes me developing a cluster-type headache.

 

[WouldBe]

Nearly all I looked at had a noise level of 60 dB or so. No good for inside but with an outside unit could it not be in somewhere that's soundproofed?

Don't think so as it would have to be air tight which would stop the heat pump working.

 

[two sheds]

Indeed, although I was thinking you could just soundproof the casing leaving the vent free - I'd have thought a lot of the vibration comes from the casing.

 

[StoneRoad]

We've finally sorted out our electric "deal" for the next year - the monthly amount is almost double what we were paying, which was a little under what it should have been.

The bad weather has put me off doing the laundry today, getting stuff dry would be even more expensive than usual as the relative humidity is very high.

 

[alex_]

Nearly all I looked at had a noise level of 60 dB or so. No good for inside but with an outside unit could it not be in somewhere that's soundproofed?

And I'll swear I saw one with indoor unit only and with noise level of around 30 dB. I'll try to find it again if you're interested.

What is that compared to a gas boiler though ?

 

[StoneRoad]

Indeed, although I was thinking you could just soundproof the casing leaving the vent free - I'd have thought a lot of the vibration comes from the casing.

Thinking how we've soundproofed "sheds" for various compressors over the years has given me an idea of how to do this, in terms of baffles etc.

 

[two sheds]

Thinking how we've soundproofed "sheds" for various compressors over the years has given me an idea of how to do this, in terms of baffles etc.

as in you think it's possible, or not possible?

I'd have suggested adding a wideish hose to the inlet but that might affect airflow.

 

[StoneRoad]

as in you think it's possible, or not possible?

I'd have suggested adding a wideish hose to the inlet but that might affect airflow.

A combination of resilient mountings, insulation of the enclosure, baffles on inlet & outlet louvres are the factors I would consider.

Experience might mean altering the insulation to a composite of rigid, closed call foam and loose rock-wool to deaden sound transmission.
We have a similar problem with the engine room on our boat ... and that has the added complication that whatever we use also has to be fireproof !

 

[Chz]

The hot water (as in taps) is generally only heated to 50-55C, (as that’s where the efficiency of heat pumps starts to asymptote); it doesn’t ‘bother’ to heat the radiator/underfloor heating water to that temperature, as it’s just not efficient to do so. 35-45C is normal. So the output of the heat pump is modulated according to the end usage - it’s not that it can’t heat above 40C, just that it doesn’t need to for the heating circuits.

Most heat pumps (or the associated hw cylinder) include an immersion heater to a) boost heat when demand is overcoming supply (properly spec’d this shouldn’t happen often) and b) to provide a programmed temporary boost to 60C to kill off legionnaires.

That's the one thing that really puts me off them. I'm in a flat with no room for an immersion heater of a size that would cater to three people taking a shower one after another. (and we limit them to 4-5 minutes!) Let alone a bath once or twice a month. Maybe you could justify a heat pump for heating and gas for hot water, but as it's a well insulated flat hot water usage is already more than heating usage 95% of the days of the year.

That said, we only heat the water to 48C. More seems pointless when there's no standing water around and that's enough to burn if you hold your hand under it for 60s. We originally turned it down to that level because toddler, but found it's perfectly livable.

Even if there's a way around that, most people aren't going to pick one up until something is done about the disparity of gas prices vs. electric per kWh.

 

[Leafster]

I'm wondering whether the suppliers systems might get overloaded with all the meter readings being sent tomorrow evening.

My concerns appear to have been warranted after all.

I gave Bulb my meter readings just after lunch and got emails back from them to confirm they'd received them. However, I've just tried to log in again and it's telling me I'm in a half an hour queue!

 

[gentlegreen]

Right on cue :-

 

[two sheds]

Right on cue :-

Good introduction - then mainly interesting for why they're good even in cold climates.

I've had at the back of my mind that I don't generate a lot of unused solar power in the winter because I've got a controller that uses it to heat the immersion heater. If I disconnected that, though, I could have a heat pump warm up the house when the sun's shining. Hopefully some of that would warm upstairs for the evening (and sunny days tend to mean cold nights).

Best place for it is in the kitchen and I've got a small, very deep window that doesn't really gather much light. I should check whether I could fit an air-air heat pump there. Unfortunately it's next to the road so we're back to noise. Hopefully there'll be quieter versions in autumn or autumn after next since that's when the wood will have run out.

 

[two sheds]

Ta for that gg. This is good too, explains how they work. Up to about 20 minutes then goes on to heating in very cold climates, and how stupid it is that air conditioning units don't have a heat pump mode (which it is, the portable units I looked at usually had dehumidifier and cooling modes, too). I just never need cooling in the house because of the thickness of the walls.

Says maximum COP is 5.5 but not sure whether that's a theoretical maximum and does point out that the seasonal efficiency depends on outdoor climate. Don't think it would vary too much in the UK though apart from oop norf.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

Octopus Energy site down/crashing. Seems a bit obvious this was going to be the scenario of everyone wanting to submit. Martin Lewes has getting very excited about this for weeks !

 

[Saunders]

I’ve given up

 

[prunus]

Octopus Energy site down/crashing. Seems a bit obvious this was going to be the scenario of everyone wanting to submit. Martin Lewes has getting very excited about this for weeks !

Octopus’s prices aren’t changing til midnight on Saturday 2nd in any case - and I’m pretty sure that you can backdate the date of a reading up to 5 days (maybe more?) on their site, so you’ve got all next week to get the reading in.

 

[two sheds]

I thought it used to be that you could challenge estimated readings by inserting the correct reading afterwards. Not possible any more?