My electricity bill has just tripled: how about yours? Alternative suppliers?

[existentialist]

This is what smart metering was designed for, the cost of electricity between about 2300 and 0500 is effectively zero and conversely at peak time very costly.

If you can shift usage, you don’t need to build so many power stations.

This is why smart metering is a good thing.

There's a way they could have done this without smart metering, and all that goes with it. I think I've probably mumbled about it before, but this...

Dynamic Demand

Dynamic Demand is a not-for-profit organisation that promotes new energy technologies to tackle climate change.

www.dynamicdemand.co.uk

GB Fuel type power generation production

GridWatch | Live statistic of UK National Electricity grid by type of generation | Solar PV power Generation | Coal Stations output in Gigawatts | Wind Output Gigawatts | Nuclear energy output |Biomass power generation Output

gridwatch.co.uk

Dynamic demand control. Some very cheap electronics in appliances like fridges and water heaters can monitor the grid frequency and only switch on when it's above a particular value. Grid frequency changes - very slightly - according to the balance between load and supply, and by turning off appliances that don't need to be on all the time, controlled within the appliance itself, you can keep a better balance, allowing the grid to supply power for things that have to be on (lights, computers, etc) and only using the non-continuous loads when the grid has capacity.

You could then use smart metering to charge less for electricity drawn at low-demand times if you want to build in a financial incentive.

 

[alex_]

There's a way they could have done this without smart metering, and all that goes with it. I think I've probably mumbled about it before, but this...

Dynamic Demand

Dynamic Demand is a not-for-profit organisation that promotes new energy technologies to tackle climate change.

www.dynamicdemand.co.uk

GB Fuel type power generation production

GridWatch | Live statistic of UK National Electricity grid by type of generation | Solar PV power Generation | Coal Stations output in Gigawatts | Wind Output Gigawatts | Nuclear energy output |Biomass power generation Output

gridwatch.co.uk

Dynamic demand control. Some very cheap electronics in appliances like fridges and water heaters can monitor the grid frequency and only switch on when it's above a particular value. Grid frequency changes - very slightly - according to the balance between load and supply, and by turning off appliances that don't need to be on all the time, controlled within the appliance itself, you can keep a better balance, allowing the grid to supply power for things that have to be on (lights, computers, etc) and only using the non-continuous loads when the grid has capacity.

You could then use smart metering to charge less for electricity drawn at low-demand times if you want to build in a financial incentive.

Doesn’t this come after smart metering ?

 

[alex_]

I do think that the standing charges are iniquitous. It's almost the definition of "regressive taxation".

Your connection and meter does cost something to maintain.

You will pay for it either on a separate charge or hidden in the usage fees.

 

[gentlegreen]

I do think that the standing charges are iniquitous. It's almost the definition of "regressive taxation".

At the moment I'm paying 76p a day SC (and I don't even use any gas.)
Electricity £1.13
VAT 4p

 

[gentlegreen]

Your connection and meter does cost something to maintain.

You will pay for it either on a separate charge or hidden in the usage fees.

Someone elsewhere said on a prepayment key they were being charged 38p instead of 32p per unit -that would work for me ...

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

How much would you otherwise have used ?
Looking at that I suppose I might voluntarily delay cooking my tea until 6pm for the common good - 1500 watt hob for less than half an hour - under 0.5 kwh ....
Otherwise I'm running a 170 watt PC and a 5 watt lamp and 80 watts for my feet ..

They calculate what they think is your average usage. Although we usually cook round about the same time our solar panels and battery can make a huge impact on what we take from the grid. Next time might be different times and/or different lengths of time. They say they'll let you know the day before usually, so planning ahead might be a neat trick.

 

[Cerv]

Your connection and meter does cost something to maintain.

You will pay for it either on a separate charge or hidden in the usage fees.

although a non-trivial chunk of your standing charge now is paying for the admin of transferring customers from defunct suppliers to the surviving companies. that's added on and spread to the whole country.
a totally unnecessary cost for us to be paying, which is down to a failure of government.
unlike infrastructure costs which do have to be paid somehow (you can argue whether it should be standing charge, usage fee, general taxation, whatever).

 

[existentialist]

Doesn’t this come after smart metering ?

No, it's completely independent of it. The beauty of it is that it requires no infrastructure whatsoever: you have a little circuit inside your appliance that monitors grid frequency, and at some suitable setpoint (say, 49.95Hz) turns off the appliance, just like the thermostat does. If you wanted to be cleverer, and for a few more pence, you'd have the device monitor the temperature of the fridge/water heater/whatever, and adjust the setpoint according to how far the actual temperature was from the setpoint temperature - proportional control, of a kind.

The only reason for adjusting cost would be to incentivise people to fit appliances that had this capability. But, seriously, you'd probably be talking about a unit cost of 50p or so in bulk - you could arguably just make it a legal requirement that certain appliances had them fitted. And, 99% of the time, the user wouldn't even notice.

 

[existentialist]

Your connection and meter does cost something to maintain.

You will pay for it either on a separate charge or hidden in the usage fees.

I get that. And I appreciate that the utility companies need to cover those costs. It just seems regressive to me to set a comparatively high service charge that penalises low users far more (in proportion to the overall bill) than if it were rolled into the per-unit cost. Or at least if more of it were. AIUI, standing charges have gone up significantly alongside unit prices, and I cannot see a justification for that.

 

[Chz]

No, it's completely independent of it. The beauty of it is that it requires no infrastructure whatsoever: you have a little circuit inside your appliance that monitors grid frequency, and at some suitable setpoint (say, 49.95Hz) turns off the appliance, just like the thermostat does. If you wanted to be cleverer, and for a few more pence, you'd have the device monitor the temperature of the fridge/water heater/whatever, and adjust the setpoint according to how far the actual temperature was from the setpoint temperature - proportional control, of a kind.

The only reason for adjusting cost would be to incentivise people to fit appliances that had this capability. But, seriously, you'd probably be talking about a unit cost of 50p or so in bulk - you could arguably just make it a legal requirement that certain appliances had them fitted. And, 99% of the time, the user wouldn't even notice.

Sooo... Replace all your appliances, or replace your meter? This may have been a good alternative long term, but you know the requirement was Something Must Be Done! That was only ever going to end one way.

 

[two sheds]

We're with Octopus Energy and they've just started a scheme whereby those with smart meters are told the day before to use as little electricity between certain times as possible. They measure how much less you use than normal and you earn points as a result. And we all know what points mean. Points mean prizes! We were asked to do it the other day, between 5 and 6 p.m. So we turned most things off and did a crossword by candlelight. Just got our results through this morning. We reduced our usage by 94% and earned £2.22. Will probably do this again.

It's good but effectively penalizes people who've already reduced consumption as much as they can. Good for people who have been profligate though

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

It's good but effectively penalizes people who've already reduced consumption as much as they can. Good for people who have been profligate though

True enough, though I'm not sure how they calculate typical usage. We got our smart meter back in April, so the only definite readings they have for November are based on last year's monthly reading taken by my good self. I take your point, though.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I get that. And I appreciate that the utility companies need to cover those costs. It just seems regressive to me to set a comparatively high service charge that penalises low users far more (in proportion to the overall bill) than if it were rolled into the per-unit cost. Or at least if more of it were. AIUI, standing charges have gone up significantly alongside unit prices, and I cannot see a justification for that.

I agree, although the gas standing charge here has only gone from (ex-VAT) 26.04p in early 2020 to 27.12p now, whereas electric has increased from 23.33p to a massive 40.64p, but that's due to the costs caused by the failed suppliers, which is only levied on the electric side of things, and should go back down again in time.

 

[elbows]

We're with Octopus Energy and they've just started a scheme whereby those with smart meters are told the day before to use as little electricity between certain times as possible. They measure how much less you use than normal and you earn points as a result. And we all know what points mean. Points mean prizes! We were asked to do it the other day, between 5 and 6 p.m. So we turned most things off and did a crossword by candlelight. Just got our results through this morning. We reduced our usage by 94% and earned £2.22. Will probably do this again.

I see Octopus have a page where they are showing off positive tweets from people who took part in that test session:

The best of Saving Sessions on Twitter

Octopus Energy Saving Sessions are here to encourage customers to shift their power usage away from peak times and will be able to earn OctoPoints and rewards for doing so, throughout winter.

octopus.energy

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I see Octopus have a page where they are showing off positive tweets from people who took part in that test session:

The best of Saving Sessions on Twitter

Octopus Energy Saving Sessions are here to encourage customers to shift their power usage away from peak times and will be able to earn OctoPoints and rewards for doing so, throughout winter.

octopus.energy

It was quite fun. A bit different. Whether it would still be quite so exciting the 15th time, I suspect not.

 

[planetgeli]

We reduced our usage by 94% and earned £2.22. Will probably do this again.

So you earned £2.22 an hour for sitting in the dark and cold? I'm sure there are migrant workers in Qatar who would take that but as a 'perk' for living in a rich country it's got a touch of the Victorian about it for me. Is this really how we should look after our poor? "Hey pensioner, dare to switch that electric blanket off? Cash prizes for the living!"

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

So you earned £2.22 an hour for sitting in the dark and cold? I'm sure there are migrant workers in Qatar who would take that but as a 'perk' for living in a rich country it's got a touch of the Victorian about it for me. Is this really how we should look after our poor? "Hey pensioner, dare to switch that electric blanket off? Cash prizes for the living!"

It's not really about prizes. That just adds a slight incentive. It's about occasionally decreasing the overall demand on the grid. It's not compulsory. Because you know about it in advance you can prepare for a short period of time without much power. Or you can just forget all about it.

 

[alex_]

It's good but effectively penalizes people who've already reduced consumption as much as they can. Good for people who have been profligate though

“Only heat your swimming pool 22 hours per day”

 

[alex_]

So you earned £2.22 an hour for sitting in the dark and cold? I'm sure there are migrant workers in Qatar who would take that but as a 'perk' for living in a rich country it's got a touch of the Victorian about it for me. Is this really how we should look after our poor? "Hey pensioner, dare to switch that electric blanket off? Cash prizes for the living!"

If everyone in the country turned the kettle and oven on at 1800 this evening, we would all be sitting in the dark and people would die ( car crashes with no streetlights, people who have home medical services which need power etc )

This is paying people to do the opposite.

If we want to be a country where everyone can turn the kettle on at 1800, power is going to cost a lot more as we will need about 3x more powerstations

 

[cupid_stunt]

So you earned £2.22 an hour for sitting in the dark and cold? I'm sure there are migrant workers in Qatar who would take that but as a 'perk' for living in a rich country it's got a touch of the Victorian about it for me. Is this really how we should look after our poor? "Hey pensioner, dare to switch that electric blanket off? Cash prizes for the living!"

It's an attempt to reduce electric use at peak times to prevent enforced widespread power cuts, have you missed the fact that there may not be enough gas to keep the power stations generating enough electric at peak times, if all the wrong circumstances combine at certain points this winter?

I am not poor and I would rather reduce my use if needed than have the likes of my mother suffering power cuts.

 

[MickiQ]

Standing charges is just blatant thieving, I'm pretty certain that the cables and pipes to my house are the same ones that were there when it was built 32 years ago. It's true that the house has been rewired and the fuseboxes in the house and the garage have been replaced in that time but that was paid for on my dime and I got no refund from any funds mantaining infrastructure. Yes infrastructure needs to be maintained but it can be paid for out of utility profits.
As I have mentioned before supermarkets charge me only for the groceries I buy, there is no charge for someone cleaning the floors and bogs or stacking the shelves or the capital cost of the building. They cover it out of their profits.
Standing charges are a personal bugbear of mine, they are basically stealing money off me (and I can afford it) and stealing even more money off people who can't.

 

[Storm Fox]

Standing charges is just blatant thieving, I'm pretty certain that the cables and pipes to my house are the same ones that were there when it was built 32 years ago. It's true that the house has been rewired and the fuseboxes in the house and the garage have been replaced in that time but that was paid for on my dime and I got no refund from any funds mantaining infrastructure. Yes infrastructure needs to be maintained but it can be paid for out of utility profits.
As I have mentioned before supermarkets charge me only for the groceries I buy, there is no charge for someone cleaning the floors and bogs or stacking the shelves or the capital cost of the building. They cover it out of their profits.
Standing charges are a personal bugbear of mine, they are basically stealing money off me (and I can afford it) and stealing even more money off people who can't.

Back in the days when services were publically owned the Standing Charge made sense, it was used for infrastructure. But these current companies are just admin companies and shit ones at that. So Standing Charges are just a tax on poorer citizens.

 

[planetgeli]

I am not poor and I would rather reduce my use if needed than have the likes of my mother suffering power cuts.

Of course. Then go ahead and do this, you don't need any pittance of a financial incentive to do so. Just do it anyway. But this 'points make prizes' offers is, I suggest, aimed at people who need to make every penny count. There will be pensioners doing it to save a penny while offices and education facilities have gone off for the night leaving all the lights and heating on.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I've just been informed that, as one of the top savers, I've also earned another £1.25. The Milky Bars are on me!

 

[platinumsage]

Standing charges is just blatant thieving, I'm pretty certain that the cables and pipes to my house are the same ones that were there when it was built 32 years ago. It's true that the house has been rewired and the fuseboxes in the house and the garage have been replaced in that time but that was paid for on my dime and I got no refund from any funds mantaining infrastructure. Yes infrastructure needs to be maintained but it can be paid for out of utility profits.
As I have mentioned before supermarkets charge me only for the groceries I buy, there is no charge for someone cleaning the floors and bogs or stacking the shelves or the capital cost of the building. They cover it out of their profits.
Standing charges are a personal bugbear of mine, they are basically stealing money off me (and I can afford it) and stealing even more money off people who can't.

I bet you’d love to pay for your internet by the megabyte, perhaps you should campaign for an end to inclusive phone minutes too. Maybe go the whole hog and lobby to charge people for actually calling the fire brigade rather than slap that unfair levy on everyone’s council tax bill?

There’s plenty of documentation out there on the transmission grid and distribution network operator costs and how these relate to the standing charges in different regions.

 

[BigMoaner]

literally going around the house and switchng EVERYTHING off, all the plugs before bed instead of just standby. gonna see if it makes a difference. wifi, everything. thank god its a mild winter - went to the park with kids an hour ago adn it felt like a summer evening. mild as fuck!

 

[Elpenor]

Back in the days when services were publically owned the Standing Charge made sense, it was used for infrastructure. But these current companies are just admin companies and shit ones at that. So Standing Charges are just a tax on poorer citizens.

I was thinking earlier today that in a fully nationalised system the same organisation would produce the electricity, supply it to my door via the National Grid, install and maintain it and bill me.

But that’s clearly not going to happen as how would the shareholders make money out of me.

 

[Elpenor]

One advantage would be that I would know who to call and wouldn’t need to find new trades whenever I move area

 

[Artaxerxes]

Really starting to notice the prices on the supermarket, it's fucking grim

 

[kenny g]

Checked my bill and we have used about half the power March to Nov 2022 compared to same time period last year. Not taking much notice of energy use whilst cooking but lack of CH use apart from a weekly one hour test run and getting to bed by 9 pm on week nights must be having an impact.