Gramsci
Well-Known Member
In what way? I live near where it happened. Ive read the ES and the Metro report. Dont see the problem.
Murder and rape on Moorlands Estate/ Somerleyton Road, Brixton
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In what way? I live near where it happened. Ive read the ES and the Metro report. Dont see the problem.
ShootStabSniff
New Member
New local news report:
Suggests suspects may have travelled in mini cab:
http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/...TV_of_minicab_driven_to_Brixton_murder_scene/
Two knifemen suspected of killing schoolboy Kwame Ofosu-Asare on a Brixton housing estate may have driven a minicab to the scene, police have revealed.
CCTV images of the Vauxhall Zafira car being picked up in Camberwell before the murder have been made public.
Police believe the two suspects drove the car from Camberwell to the Myatts Field Estate in Stockwell.
After the stabbing, they are believed to have returned to the minicab and driven back towards Camberwell.
They then made a second stop in Vassall Road, before moving on to the Moorlands Estate in Brixton where 17-year-old Kwame was stabbed to death.
Police are urging the driver of the minicab to come forward.
The information comes after a 22-year-old boy was arrested on suspicion of Kwame’s murder.
The A-level student from Catford was knifed multiple times as he walked with a friend through Adelaide Close on the Moorlands Estate last Friday (March 2).
He died as ambulance crews rushed him to hospital. Police believe he may have been the innocent victim of a ‘revenge attack’ following the stabbing of a 17-year-old boy in West Norwood on the same day.
Detective Chief Inspector John McFarlane, who is leading the murder investigation, said: “At this stage I believe this was a random selection of victim and that Kwame could have been attacked by individuals who saw people they did not know on what they perceived to be their territory.”
Suggests suspects may have travelled in mini cab:
http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/...TV_of_minicab_driven_to_Brixton_murder_scene/
Two knifemen suspected of killing schoolboy Kwame Ofosu-Asare on a Brixton housing estate may have driven a minicab to the scene, police have revealed.
CCTV images of the Vauxhall Zafira car being picked up in Camberwell before the murder have been made public.
Police believe the two suspects drove the car from Camberwell to the Myatts Field Estate in Stockwell.
After the stabbing, they are believed to have returned to the minicab and driven back towards Camberwell.
They then made a second stop in Vassall Road, before moving on to the Moorlands Estate in Brixton where 17-year-old Kwame was stabbed to death.
Police are urging the driver of the minicab to come forward.
The information comes after a 22-year-old boy was arrested on suspicion of Kwame’s murder.
The A-level student from Catford was knifed multiple times as he walked with a friend through Adelaide Close on the Moorlands Estate last Friday (March 2).
He died as ambulance crews rushed him to hospital. Police believe he may have been the innocent victim of a ‘revenge attack’ following the stabbing of a 17-year-old boy in West Norwood on the same day.
Detective Chief Inspector John McFarlane, who is leading the murder investigation, said: “At this stage I believe this was a random selection of victim and that Kwame could have been attacked by individuals who saw people they did not know on what they perceived to be their territory.”
That is one weird sort of a name for a restaurant.
amy clark
New Member
There was something definitely dark in the air yesterday. My 14 year old son and his mate got attacked by a mob of up to 15 youths yesterday at about 3.45pm on Streatham High Rd. I'm still in shock, if it wasn't for the intervention of a guy and his son who stepped in pulled the youths off. Then rang me and took my son and his friend to the Police Station it would have been a lot worse. My son never really goes out anymore, I fear for this generation of kids. We have to do something, it can't go on...
What have our youths come to be? This is so wrong and hopefully, the authorities can find a way to change this. I'd send them to some facility like a boot camp to help them change their ways. I won't send my kids out at night as well if this happens in my neighborhood. So scary
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
Boot camps are not the answer in any way. They would make things worse and would cost a lot of money.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
it's up to everyone. not just 'the authorities' or parents.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
OU is right
Stupidly simplistic suggestion. Apart from anything else the way rents on this estate have risen over the last ten years, parents are too busy working (often two or three jobs) just to keep their heads above water, most of the troublesome kids don't have deadbeat parents, quite the opposite in fact.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
I think we have to take a long hard look at ourselves as a society. We are now judging ourselves by how much we have, not who we are.
This, yes. But not only this.
Young, mainly male gang violence isn't exclusively British - it happens at the margins of most societies, in Brazilian favelas and South African shanty towns. Adolescent males are awash with testosterone and most societies have cultural ways of dealing with it. When those cultural controls break down, from poverty and social upheaval, the vacuum is filled. It used to be the Scouts, the Boys' Brigade and other youth groups here; cuts, changing fashions and paedo-paranoia have decimated those. Urban employment prospects are particularly bleak for young men; it adds up to what we could call a crisis of masculinity, and we are all responsible.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
i think it's naive to expect 'the authorities' to sort it all out. they haven't done very well so far.
definitely agree that there need to be projects that give youths something to do, a constructive alternative to what's going on now.
definitely agree that there need to be projects that give youths something to do, a constructive alternative to what's going on now.
It's not "up to" anyone to sort it. We could just all leave it and deal with the consequences. The idea that it is any one group's responsibility to sort a social problem is pretty much where everything falls to bits. It's up to you (and me) to do the thing that we think is responsible and it needs different elements of society being brave/bothered/thought through enough to do demonstrate that they all give a toss. I'm not a great fan of the idea of authorities deciding how our social problems will be sorted.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
While I broadly agree with your main argument, I'm at loss as to why I'm responsible.
soupdragon
Well-Known Member
Hello - here goes:
Because (IMHO) - the organisations Fortyplus is outlining were part of broader collectivist social formations that used to be more dominant in our culture. His characterisation of 'cuts, changing fashions and paedo-paranoia' isn't sufficient I think to explain their demise – it's all part of the generations long story of the pluralisation of society in a whole range of ways (permissive society / marketisation are both two squabbling sides of this same movement) that has rendered individualism as the bed rock of our social reality – which your response 'why are you responsible' - reflects. Your response is absolutely correct from within that pluralist world view and completely contrary to the collectivist world view that enabled those kind of organisations to exist in the first place. If you want them (or new less creepy ones) to exist (as you seem to suggest by agreeing), you have to change your world view in relation to your position as an individual and accept responsibility for it...
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
Except that social problems are exacerbated by factors which are absolutely the business of Government. Half of black young men are unemployed for example.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
By chance ive reading a critique of this position by Ranciere in his book "The Emancipated Spectator". Have not got time today to go into it all. He critiques the idea that permissive society/ marketisation are sides of the same coin and which destroyed collectivist socialising institutions.
As he points out its an argument put forward by some on Left and Right. The permissive society came out of 60s leftist youth revolt who inadvertently championed freedom which was incorporated by Capital. Capitalism was quite happy to see collectivist institutions decline to be replaced by individualism. The individualised consumer society extended the power of Capital.
So the argument goes. However ,as Ranciere points out, these were exactly the same kinds of argument used by those who opposed the French revolution ( Burke). The old Feudal ties of obligation were swept away leading to terror and violence.
Ranciere sees this critique as leading to acceptance of things as they are. Also a misreading of the history of the past 40 years since 68.
Ive got to go. Will think more on this. And try to find link to his work.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Excellent point.
You want to know what did for a lot of those youth groups? The increased price of housing (if you can't pay the mortgage with on full time earner, the number of adults with free time & energy in the evenings is more or less halved), plus the increased insistance on trained adults to run and supervise those units.
Last month, a guide company which had been struggling to stay open for the last decade was disbanded. There just aren't enough warranted guiders, let alone other adults with enough free time to do the evenings, the fundraising, the activity planning, activity days & weekends, and keep up with any required training (at least partly for insurance purposes).
soupdragon
Well-Known Member
Not all status quos are the same –
Burke's arguments were against the collectivist revolution - he was terrified of the Will of the People no? Having then developed forms of democratic collectivism through the C20, the market / permissive revolution are in effect counter-revolutionary - returning (partly) to a pre-collectivist status quo of the market, with its excesses exploited by neo-feudalism, old corruption, and sticky=plastered over with Big Society do-gooding that Burke would have quite liked - Cameron, the wet-eyed aristocrat, is surely his heir?
Isn't the idea that we the People are the Authority? Isn't the problem that we've given up on being that?
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Errmmm...I haven't made any cuts to public services, in fact I'm involved in fights against them.
I'm still confused as to how exactly I am responsible for things I am actively opposed to!
soupdragon
Well-Known Member
ha ha - fair play: but, if you're already fighting it, aren't you doing so out of an acceptance of fortysomething's collective 'we' of responsibility?
Laughing Toad
Turn the volume down please.
You want to know what did for a lot of those youth groups? The increased price of housing (if you can't pay the mortgage with on full time earner, the number of adults with free time & energy in the evenings is more or less halved), plus the increased insistance on trained adults to run and supervise those units.
Last month, a guide company which had been struggling to stay open for the last decade was disbanded. There just aren't enough warranted guiders, let alone other adults with enough free time to do the evenings, the fundraising, the activity planning, activity days & weekends, and keep up with any required training (at least partly for insurance purposes).
You can't blame poverty on the cost of housing alone. I know my arguments aren't popular around these parts, but getting a better education and having fewer children is something people should be told more often.
We are all responsible because each of us is a citizen in the society in which these problems have developed. "Responsible" isn't the same as "to be blamed for": easy as it is, I don't think it's ever helpful to fall back simply to "I blame the parents/the council/the police/the tories/the bankers/the unions/the permissive society". I don't have the answers, but I do think it has a lot to do with masculinity.
I'm very uneasy with this, though, as it challenges most of the egalitarian, liberal/feminist ideas I espouse. But the biological link between testosterone and aggression is pretty clear.
Obviously, there's not a single solution. Bootcamp/informal education/youth group - the Boys' Brigade, re-imagined for the 21st century - to channel the testosterone-fuelled tendency to aggression - isn't such a terrible idea, but won't help without jobs and opportunities.
I'm very uneasy with this, though, as it challenges most of the egalitarian, liberal/feminist ideas I espouse. But the biological link between testosterone and aggression is pretty clear.
Obviously, there's not a single solution. Bootcamp/informal education/youth group - the Boys' Brigade, re-imagined for the 21st century - to channel the testosterone-fuelled tendency to aggression - isn't such a terrible idea, but won't help without jobs and opportunities.
Exactly
You skimmed my post didn't you? Please reread it, when you have the time and energy.
I didn't blame poverty on the cost of housing. I was blaming the lack of available adults to run youth groups at least partly on the fact that more and more households need to have every adult in fulltime work!
Laughing Toad
Turn the volume down please.
This is what you said.You skimmed my post didn't you? Please reread it, when you have the time and energy.
If you can pay the mortgage with one full time earner then the number of adults with free time & energy in the evenings is not more or less halved.
I am making the very obvious point that the reason some housholds require more than one earner is a little more complicated than the "increased cost of housing".
Are you genuinely this thick? Don't you realise that a lot of youthgroup leaders used to be retired or only working part time? If they no longer have the time, the youth groups close. If they close, there's less positive peer pressure. Would you like me to spell out where this ends up, or can you join the rest of the dots?
soupdragon
Well-Known Member
If you're going to (quite reasonably) argue for more complexity in people's arguments, arguing yourself that it comes down to people needing to 'get a better education and have less children' is really shooting yourself in the foot.
If you're take the role of Mr-Tory-Says-It-How-It-Is can't you try to be a bit more interesting than that.
Laughing Toad
Turn the volume down please.
In post 139 you claimed that the reason why people now have less free time is the "increased cost of housing". I'm pointing out other reasons.Are you genuinely this thick? Don't you realise that a lot of youthgroup leaders used to be retired or only working part time? If they no longer have the time, the youth groups close. If they close, there's less positive peer pressure. Would you like me to spell out where this ends up, or can you join the rest of the dots?
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