Moscow concert hall shooting, 22 Mar 24

[Ax^]

why would I edit when it clearly a post to get out of whatever cylindrical loop of random picky question we find ourselfs in this afternoon


double quote is always nice mind

 

[JimW]

Would have thought part of the apparent blase approach was knowing this is not the sort of attack the Ukrainians would undertake.

 

[Silas Loom]

TBF I am not sure that only OMON/National Guard would have responded, it would probably have seen everyone of whatever law enforcement organization turn up and without waiting for orders. There are some reports that one of the attackers was killed at Crocus City Hall itself, so someone must have got on scene quickly enough to do something.

Russia has seen plenty of terrorist atrocities. They’d have the basics of control rooms and gold/silver/bronze command sorted out. No reason to assume it was a jurisdictional fuck up.

 

[Artaxerxes]

TBF I am not sure that only OMON/National Guard would have responded, it would probably have seen everyone of whatever law enforcement organization turn up and without waiting for orders. There are some reports that one of the attackers was killed at Crocus City Hall itself, so someone must have got on scene quickly enough to do something.

The Russian police are armed so while I’d not bet on a pistol guy vs an assault rifle guy it’s not like here where the police have to wait for the men with guns to show up before someone can start shooting back

(With the caveat that we know from the US that that armed police frequently sit outside thumbs up arses while the active shooter strolls about the scene increasing the body count)

 

[agricola]

The Russian police are armed so while I’d not bet on a pistol guy vs an assault rifle guy it’s not like here where the police have to wait for the men with guns to show up before someone can start shooting back

(With the caveat that we know from the US that that armed police frequently sit outside thumbs up arses while the active shooter strolls about the scene increasing the body count)

TBF even here for these type of things cops have not generally waited outside for armed response - at the first London Bridge attack several of them from the Met and BTP went in before the ARVs turned up with only stab vests, batons and CS - and at least one (Charlie Guenigault) went in with no protective equipment whatsoever. The two GM that were awarded (to Charlie and Wayne Marques of BTP) were richly deserved.

 

[The39thStep]

This.

Look at the Prigozhin episode, look at Manchester, look at Ukraine in the 24/48hours before the invasion.

For this particular event, the people at the end of the 999 line are the police, but the people who would respond - the specialist firearms units - aren't the police, they are the OMON/National Guard who belong to the Ministry of the Interior, not the local municipal authorities, so it's yet another phone call, yet another hurdle, yet another scrabbling around finding the person who can authorise X response.

It's usually a gangfuck, regardless of who is involved.

True and then there’s the threat and risk assessments and the fire issue in this case and the people streaming out onto the street . Normally after these things a couple of heads roll and there’s an improvement plan . In this scenario precisely because it makes Russia both a victim and may make Putin look less than perfect the action plan and it’s execution may quite vigorous.

 

[Ax^]

so if you work in the intelligence agencies in Russia basically stay away from windows higher than the second floor for a bit

 

[Artaxerxes]

TBF even here for these type of things cops have not generally waited outside for armed response - at the first London Bridge attack several of them from the Met and BTP went in before the ARVs turned up with only stab vests, batons and CS - and at least one (Charlie Guenigault) went in with no protective equipment whatsoever. The two GM that were awarded (to Charlie and Wayne Marques of BTP) were richly deserved.

Aye, though that was helped by it being literally London Bridge where theres always police about. When something like this happens theres a lot of very quick very rash decisions and at least some police accept that part of the job is they take on that risk, so its the odd ones out that stand out.

The cautious approach is probably more related to the ones where people hole up in a house and fire off a few pot shots rather than a public space.

so if you work in the intelligence agencies in Russia basically stay away from windows higher than the second floor for a bit

Honestly if in Russia just buy a bungalow or a bunker and never live near a Cathedral spire.

 

[The39thStep]

Would have thought part of the apparent blase approach was knowing this is not the sort of attack the Ukrainians would undertake.

And also that their main intelligence sources are directed on Ukraine for obvious reasons . As planetgeli pointed out their intelligence did lead them to prevent the bombing of a mosque .

 

[existentialist]

This is sub 12 year old.

Always good to hear from a topic specialist.

 

[The39thStep]

TBF I am not sure that only OMON/National Guard would have responded, it would probably have seen everyone of whatever law enforcement organization turn up and without waiting for orders. There are some reports that one of the attackers was killed at Crocus City Hall itself, so someone must have got on scene quickly enough to do something.

Not sure if that allegation was linked to the guy knocked out by a bloke/ blokes in the audience incident that JimW said was in Chinese media . The one killed at the scene story was in the BBC Russia article however I think the authorities have a line that there were 4 attackers not 5 ?

 

[kebabking]

True and then there’s the threat and risk assessments and the fire issue in this case and the people streaming out onto the street . Normally after these things a couple of heads roll and there’s an improvement plan . In this scenario precisely because it makes Russia both a victim and may make Putin look less than perfect the action plan and it’s execution may quite vigorous.

Dunno - you'd think that, and it would be logical, but they didn't do that with the Wagner/Prigozhin debacle. FSB who supposed to detect/predict this stuff didn't suffer at all, the National Guard who were supposed to get in the way, but who took the day off instead, got all of Wagner's heavy weapons, and the Russian Air Force, who were the only ones who attempted to stop the Wagner column, had their head sacked.

Apparently Bortnikov, the head of FSB is in illheath and wants to retire, so he might get his wish, but who knows....

 

[emanymton]

So that's a 'no' then? And the poster is condemned largely on the basis of what he doesn't say?

Maybe just shove him on ignore?

FWIW I've largely sidestepped the Ukraine threads because I find the endless military discussions and speculation nauseating, and for quite similar reasons - showing little concern for the massive human tragedy unfolding, in which I include the dead conscripts on both sides.

This is weak.
You avoid the threads so you don't actually know what you are referring to.

If someone was talking about Israel the way the muppet talks about Russia you would be (rightly) jumping on them as pro-Iarael and supporting a genocide. Why the double standard?

 

[existentialist]

Look - I've no idea how the reporting of this incident came into the Russian emergency services, but it probably involved hundreds of emergency calls coming in from people at or near the venue reporting (understandably) partial bits from their own POV of what was happening, possibly including local cops making their own reports. This would be received in a very short space of time, and they would have had to pick out relevant bits from each of them - the numbers of attackers, what they were armed with, where they were, the details of any vehicles involved and so on - and get that to the commanders and the attending cops in such a way that they could use that information.

In addition to that they've got to organize their own response - which would be massive for something like this, as it would be anywhere else in the world - and coordinate that of the other emergency services. Unbeknownst to them, the attackers would be in and out within 18 minutes, cutting the actual time to effectively stop this to a tiny sliver.

What I am trying to say is that the response to this would be immensely difficult. They have appeared to catch the people responsible within a day.

It's almost too good to be true.

But then in an authoritarian dictatorship, it matters less that you catch the right people than that you catch someone.

 

[Silas Loom]

It's almost too good to be true.

But then in an authoritarian dictatorship, it matters less that you catch the right people than that you catch someone.

But as has previously been said, all the videos - IS ones, and the apprehension and interrogation - check out as being the same people.

 

[The39thStep]

Dunno - you'd think that, and it would be logical, but they didn't do that with the Wagner/Prigozhin debacle. FSB who supposed to detect/predict this stuff didn't suffer at all, the National Guard who were supposed to get in the way, but who took the day off instead, got all of Wagner's heavy weapons, and the Russian Air Force, who were the only ones who attempted to stop the Wagner column, had their head sacked.

Apparently Bortnikov, the head of FSB is in illheath and wants to retire, so he might get his wish, but who knows....

I can see the point of taking everyone with you in the Prigozhin affair . This possibly different, however as you say dunno .

 

[The39thStep]

But as has previously been said, all the videos - IS ones, and the apprehension and interrogation - check out as being the same people.

And don’t mention the Guildford Four

 

[A380]

It's almost too good to be true.

But then in an authoritarian dictatorship, it matters less that you catch the right people than that you catch someone.

Yeah imagine living in a country where post a terrorist attack it was more important to convict someone rather than the people who actually did it...

 

[existentialist]

Yeah imagine living in a country where post a terrorist attack it was more important to convict someone rather than the people who actually did it...

Well, "authoritarian dictatorship" isn't binary. And we do have some sort of due process, even if it takes 17 years for it to work (Birmingham 6 - no doubt there are worse examples).

But yeah, we're not exactly inhabiting the moral high ground here.

 

[existentialist]

But as has previously been said, all the videos - IS ones, and the apprehension and interrogation - check out as being the same people.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. But the Russian speed of apprehension does seem to be quite remarkable, quite a lot of the time.

 

[dylanredefined]

I get that IS and those whom it inspires in the UK don’t have the Saudi cash, expertise or patience that AQ did in its heyday, but surely if organised criminal groups are able to smuggle weapons and ammunition in bulk to the UK, it can’t be beyond the reach of jihadists to either do the same or to buy them over here?

We don’t know how many of the countless foiled terror attacks involved firearms; we only see the thankfully small proportion that are successful.

I'll nip over to Eastern Europe buy a container load of aks and smuggle them back. Simples.
It would help if you had contacts each step of the way, transport suppliers oh and lots of cash. No one sane is selling a jihadi an ak to shoot up Wembley as they know the investigation will screw them over. Even PIRA had difficulty getting guns into Northern Ireland.

 

[Silas Loom]

I'll nip over to Eastern Europe buy a container load of aks and smuggle them back. Simples.
It would help if you had contacts each step of the way, transport suppliers oh and lots of cash. No one sane is selling a jihadi an ak to shoot up Wembley as they know the investigation will screw them over. Even PIRA had difficulty getting guns into Northern Ireland.

That makes sense. I was thinking about whether illegal weapons dealers had scruples, hadn’t considered their risk appetite and the general tendency of the state to take terrorism a bit more seriously than organised crime.

 

[Raheem]

there's a simple solution to that.

But I don't know your address.

 

[discokermit]

But I don't know your address.

oh ar. fancy your chances? you fucking weirdo.

 

[existentialist]

oh ar. fancy your chances? you fucking weirdo.

I think he might have been joking, foreign concept as that might be to you.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think he might have been joking, foreign concept as that might be to you.

Tbf I think we've all got so involved in the cut and thrust of debate that efforts to lighten the tone have skipped past us

 

[likesfish]

That makes sense. I was thinking about whether illegal weapons dealers had scruples, hadn’t considered their risk appetite and the general tendency of the state to take terrorism a bit more seriously than organised crime.

organisied crime mostly use weapons to kill and intimidate other crims the state really doesn't care till they start hurting innocent bystanders or police. Then they get hammered and go down for serious time.
be fingered supplying weapons to terrorists that have committed an Atrocity and the violence inherant in the state is unleashed and zero fucks will be given if you end up bleeding out "while trying to escape"

 

[Artaxerxes]

And don’t mention the Guildford Four

Tbf the actual bombers didn’t post on social media saying “doing a terror attack smash that like button”

 

[Raheem]

I only wanted his address to I could send him knitting patterns to distract him from posting here.

 

[discokermit]

I only wanted his address to I could send him knitting patterns to distract him from posting here.

be useful. just finished a project,