'Middle Class' it's basically just a construct isn't it...

[stuff_it]

There are people that have to work, and rich people that don't. The invention of a 'middle class' is just a way to set people against each other that are really in the same boat, having to work all their lives to service debt, etc.

So it it just a construct to help 'them' divide and rule?

Discuss.

 

[kabbes]

All human relations and society -- it's basically just a construct, isn't it?

 

[weltweit]

Well I am middle class, I was middle middle but now I am lower middle, due to some poor career choices and being ill.

I am not working class, and not upper class, that just leaves the middle.

 

[stuff_it]

Well I am middle class, I was middle middle but now I am lower middle, due to some poor career choices and being ill.

I am not working class, and not upper class, that just leaves the middle.

Are you in a position to choose never to work again? Can you afford to buy your kids new cars outright? If not then you are more working class than rich. Surely by separating yourself out into upper and lower middle class, working class, etc you are just making it easier to let the powers that be set one group against each other (as they have done, and are continuing to by trying to make a clear distinction between the 'working class' and the jobless).

 

[Crispy]

In purely economic terms, you could define middle class as "sells labour for money, but also gains income from capital" but that's not how the term is generally understood

 

[kabbes]

The theoretical notion of class structure is to do with alignment of interests. Sure, as the richest 1% accelerate out of sight (and the richest 0.1% disappear from the next 0.9%), there is a large degree to which fundamental interests in the remaining 99% should start to gain common ground. But we're a long way from being at that point yet.

 

[roctrevezel]

In my heart I am working class, but according to "experts" I am middle class. (Own my own property outright, and I have a private pension.)

 

[weltweit]

Are you in a position to choose never to work again? Can you afford to buy your kids new cars outright? If not then you are more working class than rich. Surely by separating yourself out into upper and lower middle class, working class, etc you are just making it easier to let the powers that be set one group against each other (as they have done, and are continuing to by trying to make a clear distinction between the 'working class' and the jobless).

Who are these people of whom you speak stuff_it, the powers that be I don't believe they exist, I think we are all just ants on a pile. We all have roles that fit us into the giant jigsaw.

 

[stuff_it]

Who are these people of whom you speak stuff_it, the powers that be I don't believe they exist, I think we are all just ants on a pile. We all have roles that fit us into the giant jigsaw.

The elite, rich and ruling class, the people that make money from the fruits of everyone else's labour - be it from investing their pensions money, lending them money for a house or car, or through deliberate exploitation of the workforce.

 

[Stanley Edwards]

I am truly classless.

How others perceive me is entirely up to them. Many look down on me as a street bum. Others look up to me as someone who has managed to quit the rat race and make life work as a travelling artist. Others just don't know how to take me. When I tell people about my background, most don't believe it.

My upbringing is a bit difficult to understand also. My parents were both professional people originally, but they opted out and bought a small plot of land. I grew up as part of a family of 6 in a 2 bedroom prefab bungalow (not middle class), yet my parents were successful professionals who had bought land (very middle class). I have never really known where to pigeon hole myself and don't see a reason to describe others by class. It's something I am very grateful for. Everyone is my equal as I am theirs.

 

[butchersapron]

There are people that have to work, and rich people that don't. The invention of a 'middle class' is just a way to set people against each other that are really in the same boat, having to work all their lives to service debt, etc.

So it it just a construct to help 'them' divide and rule?

Discuss.

Don't be so daft. Crudely, within the group of people that have to work some are better off than others due to their role in enforcing and benefiting from the system - they live their lives in substantially different and better conditions than other people (i.e more control over what work they do, clear chain of upward mobility, better health, better education, better housing and so on which the leads to their dominace of all the acccepted institutions of out society - legal, cultural, political. economic etc - and this is then seen as 'normal' and natural - hence their use of bollocks like 'chav') and so often identify their interests in accordance with maintaining the status quo that affords them this relatively priviliged position. This historically and structurally essential key to how this society has been constructed cannot be wished away with whiny but we all work crap.

 

[Stanley Edwards]

Don't be so daft. Crudely, within the group of people that have to work some are better off than others due to their role in enforcing and benefiting from the system - they live their lives in substantially different and better conditions than other people (i.e more control over what work they do, clear chain of upward mobility, better health, better education, better housing and so on which the leads to their dominace of all the acccepted institutions of out society - legal, cultural, political. economic etc - and this is then seen as 'normal' and natural - hence their use of bollocks like 'chav') and so often identify their interests in accordance with maintaining the status quo that affords them this relatively priviliged position. This historically and structurally essential key to how this society has been constructed cannot be wished away with whiny but we all work crap.

Where, or how do you draw the line, or make your own distinction between class groups? Easy to say those on higher income etc, but it's all relative. I don't understand the rule of divide (so to speak).

 

[butchersapron]

There are people that have to work, and rich people that don't.

And there's people in between. Aren't there?

 

[love detective]

In purely economic terms, you could define middle class as "sells labour for money, but also gains income from capital" but that's not how the term is generally understood

even economically it's not a great description (most people gain income from capital, to a greater or lesser degree, in some form or another, either directly or indirectly) however that objection aside, it misses the key point about the social & cultural capital at the disposal of the 'real' middle class which is transmitted down through successive generations

 

[Stanley Edwards]

Does 'upper class' require heritage? Is it something you have to be born into?

 

[butchersapron]

Where, or how do you draw the line, or make your own distinction between class groups? Easy to say those on higher income etc, but it's all relative. I don't understand the rule of divide (so to speak).

Got me stanley, because it's impossible to draw a material line at this direct point then no line exists. No differing life conditions or interests exist. Oh i didn't even notice they were black

 

[spanglechick]

i think there is a problem that economic / Marxist definitions of class (relationship to the means of production / assets / whatever) - have become tainted with cultural associations to the point where cultural trappings are more predominant in many (most?) people's minds. What newspaper you read; what you watch on tv; where you go on holiday... screams 'class' to people when these things have little to do with actual economic class.

it's easy to identify middle class cultural signifiers, but they sometimes belong to working class people, and sometimes to upper class people too.

 

[Crispy]

even economically it's not a great description (most people gain income from capital, to a greater or lesser degree, in some form or another, either directly or indirectly) however that objection aside, it misses the key point about the social & cultural capital at the disposal of the 'real' middle class which is transmitted down through successive generations

Yeah, power relations make up the majority of the definition

 

[weltweit]

When I was a student I had a small bit of an epiphany one morning when out walking in the hills.

I found myself at the top of a hill outside a small industrial town looking down on a major A road down which vehicles of all descriptions were travelling to and from the town.

Looking at the vehicles I could clearly make out differences, most common were heavy goods vehicles which I imagined were driven by a particular type of person wearing specific clothes, then next most often there were sales people's cars which were Sierra's and perhaps Mondeos and they all wore suits, the jackets of which were hanging in the back of their cars. Then there were larger more expensive cars driven also by people in suits who I thought were probably sales managers or directors and then less frequently there were luxury executive cars like Jaguar and Rolls Royce which I imagined were driven by the owners of the companies that employed the former types of people. Just occasionally there was a car towing a caravan, but there were enough of them for them also to form a type. Holidaymakers.

What was significant to me was that everyone was doing what was expected of them, driving the right cars for their roles, wearing the right clothes to fit into the lives they had in the grand scheme of things. I wondered what my future held in store, which type of car and clothing would I end up wearing. Would I fit into one of these simplistic categories, I could not really see a way of avoiding it.

In marketing, people work hard to categorise people into groups in order to target them with promotions and advertising. There is even a group for individualists who don't fit into the more normal groups. Sadly the way individualists behave, as a collection of people, is also able to be described and targeted.

There simply is no escape from categorisation!

 

[butchersapron]

i think there is a problem that economic / Marxist definitions of class (relationship to the means of production / assets / whatever) - have become tainted with cultural associations to the point where cultural trappings are more predominant in many (most?) people's minds. What newspaper you read; what you watch on tv; where you go on holiday... screams 'class' to people when these things have little to do with actual economic class.

it's easy to identify middle class cultural signifiers, but they sometimes belong to working class people, and sometimes to upper class people too.

The original Marxist defintions of class always contained the cultural element - the middle class just fought hard for a century to remove them due to their own desire to appear classically working class, and they largely succeeded - amongst the left anyway. The upshot of this has been isolation from the life of the actual flesh-and-blood working class. The purely economic model is the taint.

 

[stuff_it]

There simply is no escape from categorisation!

What I am on about is deliberate categorisation which is then promoted to us by the government, so that some people look down on others, some people spend their lives aspiring to something, but the vast majority are in fact in the same leaky boat and should be working together.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Don't be so daft. Crudely, within the group of people that have to work some are better off than others due to their role in enforcing and benefiting from the system - they live their lives in substantially different and better conditions than other people (i.e more control over what work they do, clear chain of upward mobility, better health, better education, better housing and so on which the leads to their dominace of all the acccepted institutions of out society - legal, cultural, political. economic etc - and this is then seen as 'normal' and natural - hence their use of bollocks like 'chav') and so often identify their interests in accordance with maintaining the status quo that affords them this relatively priviliged position. This historically and structurally essential key to how this society has been constructed cannot be wished away with whiny but we all work crap.

Yes, that's a good description. I would say that it rules out quite a few people who most would consider middle class, though. What you're talking about is probably no more than the top 10-15 percent earners.

 

[stuff_it]

Yes, that's a good description. I would say that it rules out quite a few people who most would consider middle class, though. What you're talking about is probably no more than the top 10-15 percent earners.

This is sort of my point?

If it's the top 10-15% it's not the middle is it, yet lots of people have been led to believe that they too could fall in this group so long as they are good little boys and girls, keep their heads down and work hard etc when it is clearly a scam.

 

[Crispy]

Yes, that's a good description. I would say that it rules out quite a few people who most would consider middle class, though. What you're talking about is probably no more than the top 10-15 percent earners.

Although "dominance of all the accepted institutions of out society - legal, cultural, political. economic etc" can be attained without necessarily being in the top 10-15% earners. Some professions/sectors are poorly paid relative to their prestigiousness/influence.

 

[quimcunx]

Isn't it just a subset of working class?

 

[weltweit]

.. If it's the top 10-15% it's not the middle is it, yet lots of people have been led to believe that they too could fall in this group so long as they are good little boys and girls, keep their heads down and work hard etc when it is clearly a scam.

Everyone, no matter what their class, has to play by the rules.

 

[Stanley Edwards]

...Oh i didn't even notice they were black

Does this mean race affects the way you perceive peoples 'class'?

I hate the whole concept and agree with the OP to a large extent. I see people who believe themselves to belong to an upper class who have less money and freetime than myself (who they probably perceive as being the lowest possible class - sort of 'sub working class). Then I see people who are very proud of their working class roots who drive Range Rovers, have big houses without mortgage and more freetime and spare cash than they know what to do with.

If we're talking about the UK and it's fairly unique class values, then skin colour is an issue. The upper class is the old school - all white. However, people have married into higher circles regardless.

From where I look (and I really don't understand the concept) I see:

Working class = unqualified/low skilled.
Middle class = went to university.
Upper class = family connections to old money.

All of which are entirely irrelevant to an individuals income/freetime equation.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Although "dominance of all the accepted institutions of out society - legal, cultural, political. economic etc" can be attained without necessarily being in the top 10-15% earners. Some professions/sectors are poorly paid relative to their prestigiousness/influence.

They are. But that muddies the waters a little bit. Is a tube driver middle class? Not really a m/c job. But it pays more than a lot of people considered m/c earn.

 

[butchersapron]

Although "dominance of all the accepted institutions of out society - legal, cultural, political. economic etc" can be attained without necessarily being in the top 10-15% earners. Some professions/sectors are poorly paid relative to their prestigiousness/influence.

And they tend to be those with least influence but which are still based around the wider economic dominance of the sector of society that these institutions members tend to come from (or better, that produce these people - private education, unpaid internships, ability to work at fuck all money and still live pretty ok lifes)

 

[stuff_it]

Working class = unqualified/low skilled.
Middle class = went to iniversity.
Upper class = family connections to old money.

I challenge you to say that out loud in a WMC in any part of the UK you choose.