mass grave of 800 infants found at Galway 'fallen women' home

[8den]

No. There were crucial moments of crisis when the church suddenly found itself defied by the state - and the moments when these things happened were very revealing. During the teachers' strike of 1946, for example (I'm sure I must have mentioned this before), the church offered to mediate between the teachers' unions and the government of the day. That government (led by Dev, don't forget!) did not jump to attention, it simply ignored the church's offers.

Then there's the very strong relaxation of literary censorship in 1967, a decision taken by none other than Charlie Haughey himself. The Irish alibi of "sure it was all the church's fault, de church was all powerful loike, dere was nutting we could do loike" simply won't do.

The flip side is of course events like the collapse Costello's govt over Browne's Mother & Child scheme, brought about by the church. And it's power still reigned through the 80s & 90s banning contraception during the heights of the AIDs epidemic.

 

[Idris2002]

The flip side is of course events like the collapse Costello's govt over Browne's Mother & Child scheme, brought about by the church. And it's power still reigned through the 80s & 90s banning contraception during the heights of the AIDs epidemic.

Condoms were legalized in 1985.

 

[Espresso]

Condoms were legalized in 1985.

They were, but if you lived in Ballygobackwards the very idea of going to the local chemist and buying them would be enough to dampen your ardour. The pharmacist would know you and your folks and the local priests and everyone who knew you.
Hell's bells, I was at university in Dublin in 1985 and when condom machines were installed in the gents' loos, the university chapter of some Catholic society or other went in an broke them all. Didn't happen in the ladies' loos, if course, because no machines were installed in there.

 

[8den]

Condoms were legalized in 1985.

But before their sale was widespread a courtcase had to occur between the IFPA/VirginMegastore and the state. In 1990 Branson's shop was being fined 400 quid a day for continuing their sale.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Listening to rte radio 1 now.
The nuns were claiming money for the home for children who were already gone...either through adoption or death.

Galway county council clearly knew the land was a burial ground. And the Galway County Council were actually going to build a playground on some of that land..

Fuck...it looks like a housekeeper was signing off death certs .....

Jesus... it's pure evil

Eta...I'm editing as I listen to the program...it is horrific.

 

[Idris2002]

They were, but if you lived in Ballygobackwards the very idea of going to the local chemist and buying them would be enough to dampen your ardour. The pharmacist would know you and your folks and the local priests and everyone who knew you.
Hell's bells, I was at university in Dublin in 1985 and when condom machines were installed in the gents' loos, the university chapter of some Catholic society or other went in an broke them all. Didn't happen in the ladies' loos, if course, because no machines were installed in there.

This proves my point, not yours. They had to resort to vandalism because they were losing, and they knew it. The lunatic fringe who pushed for the 1983 referendum did so because Ireland had already started to liberalise, and that was only going to accelerate in future, even with the loss of so many potentially radical people to the emigrant ship.

Oh, and re: "Ballygobackwards": fuck you. Castlebar may be a shithole, but at least it's not an open sewer like Dublin.

 

[Espresso]

My point was that just because condoms were legalised, that didn't mean
A) That everyone who wanted them could get them
B) That everyone agreed with contraception. There were plenty of people who were heartily against it.
The reason religion held such sway in Ireland for such a long time was that it had a lot of support, from all walks of life.

And also, why would Castlebar be considered Ballygobackwards? Good God, if you'd grown up where I did, a trip to somewhere as big as Castlebar or Westport would be cause for great excitement and a level of planning seen only these days by the likes of Tim Peake.

 

[Idris2002]

My point was that just because condoms were legalised, that didn't mean
A) That everyone who wanted them could get them
B) That everyone agreed with contraception. There were plenty of people who were heartily against it.
The reason religion held such sway in Ireland for such a long time was that it had a lot of support, from all walks of life.

And also, why would Castlebar be considered Ballygobackwards? Good God, if you'd grown up where I did, a trip to somewhere as big as Castlebar or Westport would be cause for great excitement and a level of planning seen only these days by the likes of Tim Peake.

You're still looking at it the wrong way. You appear to think that the patterns of Irish social life were the result of mind control rays beamed out from a big Tesla coil on top of the Vatican. If religion held sway in Ireland, that's because it assured the class power of the post-revolutionary elites. It was a symptom, not a cause.

 

[Espresso]

There is no if about it.

All I am saying is that for a long time, there was very little in the way of opposition to the Church. To my mind, that had nothing to do with oppression, or mind control or any other such guff that you now see fit to bring into the discussion for some strange reason.
I never mentioned anything like that.
I reckon religion held sway because so many people were comfortable with their religion and saw no reason to challenge it. It was just a part of life and that was that. And for a lot of people, the idea that anyone would dream of challenging the faith or the clergy or anyone in holy orders was scandalous and shocking and completely unthinkable.

That much is obvious, given the catalogue of depravity that we know know some elements of the Church got up to for so long.

 

[Idris2002]

There is no if about it.

All I am saying is that for a long time, there was very little in the way of opposition to the Church. To my mind, that had nothing to do with oppression, or mind control or any other such guff that you now see fit to bring into the discussion for some strange reason.
I never mentioned anything like that.
I reckon religion held sway because so many people were comfortable with their religion and saw no reason to challenge it. It was just a part of life and that was that. And for a lot of people, the idea that anyone would dream of challenging the faith or the clergy or anyone in holy orders was scandalous and shocking and completely unthinkable.

That much is obvious, given the catalogue of depravity that we know know some elements of the Church got up to for so long.

This is nonsense. "It is like that because it is like that. It was like that because it was like that".

 

[Captain Christy]

But before their sale was widespread a courtcase had to occur between the IFPA/VirginMegastore and the state. In 1990 Branson's shop was being fined 400 quid a day for continuing their sale.

And in the mid 1970s an attempt to introduce availability of contraception failed because the Prime Minister and a few more cronies voted against their own legislation.

 

[Captain Christy]

Following the Irish War of Independence not much changed until the 1970s. The new Irish government were not revolutionary by any means and the ony thing that changed was the colour of the post boxes. The country was an economic disaster with the majority of people not educated past 12 years of age. The Catholic Church was powerful because they were educated. They provided health care and education to people who could not afford it. There is no doubt that they did a lot of good but having said that they imposed a strict doctrine on the people. Anything to do with sex was seen as a mortal sin. This led to the shame of the Magdalen laundries, back street abortions, nonavailability of contraception etc. Ireland remained neutral in WW2 and as a result was isolationist. Millions emigrated because the country was overpopulated and could not support ridiculously large families. Of course the Catholic Church wasnt alone. The numerically smaller Protestant churches had their nasty little regimes as well.

 

[8den]

This proves my point, not yours. They had to resort to vandalism because they were losing, and they knew it. The lunatic fringe who pushed for the 1983 referendum did so because Ireland had already started to liberalise, and that was only going to accelerate in future, even with the loss of so many potentially radical people to the emigrant ship.

Oh, and re: "Ballygobackwards": fuck you. Castlebar may be a shithole, but at least it's not an open sewer like Dublin.

Is that really the most appropriate turn of phrase you could think of, considering what this thread is about?

 

[8den]

You're still looking at it the wrong way. You appear to think that the patterns of Irish social life were the result of mind control rays beamed out from a big Tesla coil on top of the Vatican. If religion held sway in Ireland, that's because it assured the class power of the post-revolutionary elites. It was a symptom, not a cause.

Mind controlled rays.

actually image from a 1950s Irish text book.


Here's a Father Donoughue in 1938, arguing that the state bringing the women to the homes wasn't enough it had to be a crime not to.

Here's a church led book burning in 1938 where books were "unmarried mothers" were portrayed in a positive light were burnt.

 

[Idris2002]

Is that really the most appropriate turn of phrase you could think of, considering what this thread is about?

Have you ever been to Dublin?

 

[8den]

Have you ever been to Dublin?

I grew up in Dublin. And I was referring to the fact that this thread is about dead infants dumped in a septic tank.

 

[Idris2002]

I grew up in Dublin. And I was referring to the fact that this thread is about dead infants dumped in a septic tank.

I'm sure no one was ever treated like that in old Dublin town.

 

[Idris2002]

Mind controlled rays.

actually image from a 1950s Irish text book.


Here's a Father Donoughue in 1938, arguing that the state bringing the women to the homes wasn't enough it had to be a crime not to.

Here's a church led book burning in 1938 where books were "unmarried mothers" were portrayed in a positive light were burnt.

I've read the Father Donohoe bit twice now, and it appears to me that your account of the man's views is the opposite of what he's stating. He actually seems to be arguing against lay officials who would use compulsion to fill the"county home". Are you illiterate?

 

[8den]

I'm sure no one was ever treated like that in old Dublin town.

Yes I'm sure the act of holding mothers prisoner for committing the crime of getting pregnant was widespread in the liberties. Also taking money from the state for the care of babies who then managed to die of starvation on a working fucking farm, and then many of the ones who did were sold to wealthy Americans.

All the while proclaiming themselves to the representatives of a divine loving god.

You really are a gaping fucking asshole.

 

[Idris2002]

Yes I'm sure the act of holding mothers prisoner for committing the crime of getting pregnant was widespread in the liberties. Also taking money from the state for the care of babies who then managed to die of starvation on a working fucking farm, and then many of the ones who did were sold to wealthy Americans.

All the while proclaiming themselves to the representatives of a divine loving god.

You really are a gaping fucking asshole.

At least I can read.

 

[8den]

At least I can read.

Unlike your stepson?

https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/my-step-son.227715/#post-8240835


(and no not having a go at your stepson, more your rank fucking hypocrisy).

 

[Idris2002]

Unlike your stepson?

https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/my-step-son.227715/#post-8240835


(and no not having a go at your stepson, more your rank fucking hypocrisy).

WTF? Have you drink taken?

That's about internetstalker's stepson, not any relative of mine!

 

[Red Cat]

Unlike your stepson?

https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/my-step-son.227715/#post-8240835


(and no not having a go at your stepson, more your rank fucking hypocrisy).

That's really weird. What are you doing?

 

[Espresso]

I'm sure no one was ever treated like that in old Dublin town.

Do give over, like a good lad.

To my certain knowledge there was Martanna House, a former Magdalene laundry in Whitehall/Beaumont that offered board and lodging to single women until the nineties. And there were old ladies living there then who didn't wear clerical garb, so one surmises they were lifelong residents on account of them having been so called fallen women on their youth.

ETA - So if I knew about that single one, I can only speculate that there were plenty more until those times, seeing as I am an ordinary Jo Soap, and not anyone who has any specialised knowledge or professional interest in recent European history.

 

[Captain Christy]

Thre were a number of such homes in Dublin operated by both Catholic and Protestant churches with the full cooperation of the government. There was no financial support in the form of single parent allowance (initially called Unmarried Mothers Allowance!!!) until the mid 70s.
In many cases families agreed fully with their daughters been admitted to these homes. Others had the old shotgun wedding option or fecked off to England.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

the child mortality rate at Bessborough Home was nearly 70% in the 40s because the nuns in charge had no medical training at all

I have to wonder if a 70% mortality rate is due to lack of medical training. Even untrained, third-world midwives do better. Sudan is currently running at 117 deaths per 1000 births--an appalling number, but still far from 70%. (Background) At 70% I'm thinking it was infanticide, pure and simple.

 

[Idris2002]

I have to wonder if a 70% mortality rate is due to lack of medical training. Even untrained, third-world midwives do better. Sudan is currently running at 117 deaths per 1000 births--an appalling number, but still far from 70%. (Background) At 70% I'm thinking it was infanticide, pure and simple.

Your link's a bit old, its map of Sudan still includes South Sudan! I suspect that those Sudanese midwives have had some degree of even rudimentary training: look at this for example -

The new midwives in Sudan - Cooperazione Italiana in Sudan

 

[Idris2002]

Do give over, like a good lad.

To my certain knowledge there was Martanna House, a former Magdalene laundry in Whitehall/Beaumont that offered board and lodging to single women until the nineties. And there were old ladies living there then who didn't wear clerical garb, so one surmises they were lifelong residents on account of them having been so called fallen women on their youth.

ETA - So if I knew about that single one, I can only speculate that there were plenty more until those times, seeing as I am an ordinary Jo Soap, and not anyone who has any specialised knowledge or professional interest in recent European history.

I thought it was Americans who didn't understand irony.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Your link's a bit old, its map of Sudan still includes South Sudan! I suspect that those Sudanese midwives have had some degree of even rudimentary training: look at this for example -

The new midwives in Sudan - Cooperazione Italiana in Sudan

I'm sorry, I still think it was infanticide. Its just unfathomable that the result wasn't intentional, or at least preferred.

 

[Idris2002]

I'm sorry, I still think it was infanticide. Its just unfathomable that the result wasn't intentional, or at least preferred.

Violence really is inherent in the system - that's why the Python boys made a joke out of it, because they knew they had no answer to that point.