mass grave of 800 infants found at Galway 'fallen women' home

[Idris2002]

They have, but their secular mouth piece hasn't been so forthcoming. The dangerous thing is to think the church is finished influencing people politically, it hasn't it just airs it views through the Iona Institute, who for some reason get an inordinate amount of air time.

There's an ultra-right wing Catholic conservative freesheet called Alive! gets distributed to thousands of homes. You might think that would make it a threat, but the last time I saw that rag, it was calling on NI Catholics to vote DUP on social conservatism grounds.

I mean, I ask you! Who in their right mind is going to take seriously something like that? Ireland really has changed - and to understand the nature of that change requires us to drop crude idealism of the 'church brainwashed people' variety.

Drop that one though, and you'll have to reinvestigate the real causes of the Tuam horror, and that will still leave the Church wriggling on the hook - but it won't let the Plain People of Ireland stay off the hook.

 

[flypanam]

Very happy to be corrected.

 

[Idris2002]

Very happy to be corrected.

Seriously - "Catholics should vote DUP" - did you ever hear the like?

 

[flypanam]

No I haven't. Very weird. I've been out of Ireland for ten years now and am really removed from what's going on. Anyhow as for "alive" one of its columnists was my best friend in school. Dumbest smart person I know. Deep catholic reactionary, obviously.


ETA in the above post I forgot the word stand.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Nor can I help you clearly.

You became vexatious a considerable time ago. You are either as thick as pigshit, or a stirring twat. Either way, fuck off.

 

[Sasaferrato]

There's no getting away from the abnormally high mortality rate of those who were in the mother and baby homes. That needs investigating.

And why didn't they bury them in a plot ? Why hide them?

It's all sick and twisted and there is no excuse for it bar that Ireland was a shitty place and women were treated like dirt. Unmarried mothers were treated like scum. The babies were treated like scum.

Irish society has a lot to answer for and the church has massive issues. Evil...pure and simple. Where was the belief that all.life is sacred?.

The disturbing, and puzzling, aspect of this is the power that the Catholic Church clearly has over the people of Ireland.

Go back a few decades in certain parts of Scotland, and things were pretty much the same, but, secularism grew in strength, and whilst the RC church isn't quite powerless, it is a pale imitation of its heyday.

Why hasn't this happened in Ireland? Will it take a generation to die off before things change?

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Irish people have woken up in the past 10...15 years.
They're not as afraid of the church as they were.
The Catholic Church could ruin your life until relatively recently.
They ran schools...decided who got jobs in schools and religious run hospitals. The priest had influence.
That has definitely changed over the past 10 years but they still have control over a lot of schools.

It will change. No doubt about it. There will come a time in the next few years where schools will all be secular and non denominational. It has to happen....
Hospitals are already out of their hands thankfully.

The disturbing, and puzzling, aspect of this is the power that the Catholic Church clearly has over the people of Ireland.

Go back a few decades in certain parts of Scotland, and things were pretty much the same, but, secularism grew in strength, and whilst the RC church isn't quite powerless, it is a pale imitation of its heyday.

Why hasn't this happened in Ireland? Will it take a generation to die off before things change?

It'll happen very quickly now....the religious orders are all in decline apart from the contemplative orders...but they don't control anything.

 

[Idris2002]

The disturbing, and puzzling, aspect of this is the power that the Catholic Church clearly has over the people of Ireland.

Go back a few decades in certain parts of Scotland, and things were pretty much the same, but, secularism grew in strength, and whilst the RC church isn't quite powerless, it is a pale imitation of its heyday.

Why hasn't this happened in Ireland? Will it take a generation to die off before things change?

Have you been on the booze as well?

Secularism has indeed advanced considerably in Ireland: remember the gay marriage referendum?

What do you think this is, 1972?

 

[Idris2002]

bubblesmcgrath, what do you mean by "recently"? Parish priests lost their total veto on school appointments in the early 70s!

 

[TruXta]

You became vexatious a considerable time ago. You are either as thick as pigshit, or a stirring twat. Either way, fuck off.

It clearly bothers you that your brothers and sisters in the faith are not all good people. Wishing that away does nothing but draw a veil over your eyes, fool.

 

[Captain Christy]

Seriously - "Catholics should vote DUP" - did you ever hear the like?

Hasn't a clue!

 

[butchersapron]

And furthererer...the first memorial (wider plans to mark are ongoing - memorial garden being the most important, another memorial on the old workhouse gates) is being unveiled 11.00am Monday 16 November at Rosemary Green, Eastville - warning BBC filming will be taking place. It's being put up on tuesday 10th if anyone wants to see it happening. Members have now also completed a book on this, so here's some other dates for anyone interested or who has been following this since i first posted about it.

This is similar shit about to blow up

Mother finds no body in her baby's coffin

A mother who has been fighting for 42 years to find out what happened to her dead baby's remains has discovered his coffin was buried with no body in it.
Lydia Reid was granted a court order for an exhumation to be carried out at the burial plot in Edinburgh last week but no human remains were found.
The exhumation was conducted by respected forensic anthropologist Prof Dame Sue Black.
Her report concluded that the coffin was buried without human remains.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Irish people have woken up in the past 10...15 years.
They're not as afraid of the church as they were.
The Catholic Church could ruin your life until relatively recently.
They ran schools...decided who got jobs in schools and religious run hospitals. The priest had influence.
That has definitely changed over the past 10 years but they still have control over a lot of schools.

It will change. No doubt about it. There will come a time in the next few years where schools will all be secular and non denominational. It has to happen....
Hospitals are already out of their hands thankfully.

It'll happen very quickly now....the religious orders are all in decline apart from the contemplative orders...but they don't control anything.

I know of a church not so far from me that, until very recently, used to read out how much had been put in the begging envelopes, and by whom.

Ireland is slowly getting out of the grasp of the church, and the younger generations mostly couldn't give a shite about the church, but a lot of people walking down the streets of rural Ireland still act like they've met Elvis if they happen upon a priest,

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

bubblesmcgrath, what do you mean by "recently"? Parish priests lost their total veto on school appointments in the early 70s!

When the chairperson of a school board of management is the parish priest then you can be sure they have clout...and lots of it.

 

[equationgirl]

This is similar shit about to blow up

Mother finds no body in her baby's coffin

I read that article, desparately sad. Although it makes me wonder how many other people this has happened to.

 

[tim]

Here's a Father Donoughue in 1938, arguing that the state bringing the women to the homes wasn't enough it had to be a crime not to.

This highlights the problems of demonising whole groups of people. The Priest cited is attacking the authorities for not providing relief for unmarried mothers in their own homes. He attacks forced institutionalisation. He comes across as a humane man defending the rights of his parishioners to freedom, and justice and to "relief," in their homes. It's a also interesting that a board member complains that parish Priests in general oppose forced institutionalisation.

Even in Ireland in the 1930`s the Catholic Church was clearly not as monolithically vile as you would like to claim and there were clergy and presumably others willing to defend the poor against the state.

Congratulations on being stupid enough to undermine your own argument by not bothering to read the source you cited

 

[8den]

This highlights the problems of demonising whole groups of people. The Priest cited is attacking the authorities for not providing relief for unmarried mothers in their own homes. He attacks forced institutionalisation. He comes across as a humane man defending the rights of his parishioners to freedom, and justice and to "relief," in their homes. It's a also interesting that a board member complains that parish Priests in general oppose forced institutionalisation.

Even in Ireland in the 1930`s the Catholic Church was clearly not as monolithically vile as you would like to claim and there were clergy and presumably others willing to defend the poor against the state.

Congratulations on being stupid enough to undermine your own argument by not bothering to read the source you cited

For every priest who "cared" the systematic abuse of Irish Children did occur, and the Church covered it up. This has been covered in detail on this thread and elsewhere on the board.

 

[Pickman's model]

I know of a church not so far from me that, until very recently, used to read out how much had been put in the begging envelopes, and by whom.

Ireland is slowly getting out of the grasp of the church, and the younger generations mostly couldn't give a shite about the church, but a lot of people walking down the streets of rural Ireland still act like they've met Elvis if they happen upon a priest,

what, they dance away in the sort of horror you'd expect from someone coming across a rotting corpse?

 

[tim]

For every priest who "cared" the systematic abuse of Irish Children did occur, and the Church covered it up. This has been covered in detail on this thread and elsewhere on the board.

The post you quoted highlights the way that institutions and individuals within them oppress those who have who are powerless. It also shows that in all eras there are those who do not kowtow, to use a cliché, speak truth to power.

This Priest resisted rather than comply. If you'd bothered reading the extract properly you'd have realised that. Why didn't you bother reading it properly? Is demonising someone just because they are a priest any better than demonising someone for having a child out of wedlock? Is your zeal somehow more righteous?

 

[8den]

The post you quoted highlights the way that institutions and individuals within them oppress those who have who are powerless. It also shows that in all eras there are those who do not kowtow, to use a cliché, speak truth to power.

This Priest resisted rather than comply. If you'd bothered reading the extract properly you'd have realised that. Why didn't you bother reading it properly? Is demonising someone just because they are a priest any better than demonising someone for having a child out of wedlock? Is your zeal somehow more righteous?

Or alternatively I linked or uploaded to the wrong account.

I'm sure you'll find anecdotal evidence of priests ignoring church doctrine and societal dictates. But to use individual acts of priests as "proof" the church didn't have a culture of imprisoning pregnant women and selling & abusing their children is a very weird hill to die on.

 

[tim]

Or alternatively I linked or uploaded to the wrong account.

I'm sure you'll find anecdotal evidence of priests ignoring church doctrine and societal dictates. But to use individual acts of priests as "proof" the church didn't have a culture of imprisoning pregnant women and selling & abusing their children is a very weird hill to die on.

I clearly don't have to bother finding anecdotal accounts when you can do so much better by finding and blithely posting up hard evidence, a contemporary newspaper report of a priest doing just that.

What that article does show that it was state policy to punish and humiliate the poor (the principal proponent of forced confinement in that article was Mr Hughes T. D.) and punish and if expidenent allow the children of the poor to die. The Catholic Church and other institutions complied with that policy but it's too easy to just say the Church alone was criminal.

 

[8den]

I clearly don't have to bother finding anecdotal accounts when you can do so much better by finding and blithely posting up hard evidence, a contemporary newspaper report of a priest doing just that.

What that article does show that it was state policy to punish and humiliate the poor (the principal proponent of forced confinement in that article was Mr Hughes T. D.) and punish and if expidenent allow the children of the poor to die. The Catholic Church and other institutions complied with that policy but it's too easy to just say the Church alone was criminal.

Yeah people who say it was a "societal" or "cultural" issue generally ignore the fact that the dominant force in Irish Society at the time was the Church. The Church ruled Ireland from the pulpit, our constitution was proof read by a Cardinal and woe betide any politician who defied the church as Noel Browne found out.

 

[tim]

Yeah people who say it was a "societal" or "cultural" issue generally ignore the fact that the dominant force in Irish Society at the time was the Church. The Church ruled Ireland from the pulpit, our constitution was proof read by a Cardinal and woe betide any politician who defied the church as Noel Browne found out.

Which ignores the fact that the ruling elites in much of the rest of Europe and North America behaved in equally repressive ways.

 

[8den]

Which ignores the fact that the ruling elites in much of the rest of Europe and North America behaved in equally repressive ways.

I am literally struggling to see what tenuous point you're trying to make here. How does the behaviour of individual priests or atrocities committed in other countries mitigate the horrendous crimes being discussed on this thread?

 

[tim]

I am literally struggling to see what tenuous point you're trying to make here. How does the behaviour of individual priests or atrocities committed in other countries mitigate the horrendous crimes being discussed on this thread?

I'm actually trying to make two possibly three points. My first point related not to the main focus of this thread, is that but to the post you made and your attitude towards it. You make a statement and the evidence you marshal to back it up says the direct opposite. I find your insouciance and your unwillingness to fully understand the acknowledge the stupidity of your comments irritating.

My second point is that the passage you quote itself shows that rather than it being a church decision, and it was often the political authorities who sent the unmarried mothers into Institutions because it was more cost efficient than providing relief for them in their own homes. The religious orders clearly benifited from this policy and were clearly often implemented it in a cruel and homicidal manner, and but they were still often acting as agents/contractors for the state in the same way that G4S does in Britain today. I muttered in an earlier post about political elites, but on a broader level these women were incarcerated and these children died because they were people on the margins and seen as a drain on the public purse and people cared too little about their fate. As to my comments about the situation beyond Ireland women were institutionalised in Britain, surplus children sent to labour in the colonies and the eugenisists obsessed about sterilising the fecund lower orders. Meanwhile, the Germans euthanized useless eaters.


Anyway I want to have one more look at the text you quoted to show this.

According to you:

"Here's a Father Donoughue in 1938, arguing that the state bringing the women to the homes wasn't enough it had to be a crime not to."

But Father Donohoe actually said:

"You are forcing people into the County Home, which is against the law. By refusing them home relief in such cases you are taking the risk of allowing them to die of starvation... .. If a girl refuses to go will you allow her to die?... Every person has the right to his or her liberty.


In contrast it is the politicians on the panel who argue for single mothers to be forced to go into homes

Mr Hughes T. D. Chairman of the Carlow Board of Health says:
"Why should we give them the right to refuse? They are living of the charity of those who have to pay for these services. We have to consider the rate payer."
Hughes goes on to say that once in the County Home the women's children can be sent to decent homes where they can be properly looked after.

 

[8den]

I'm actually trying to make two possibly three points. My first point related not to the main focus of this thread, is that but to the post you made and your attitude towards it. You make a statement and the evidence you marshal to back it up says the direct opposite. I find your insouciance and your unwillingness to fully understand the acknowledge the stupidity of your comments irritating.

I've offered an explanation. The fact that I'm not going to pat you on the back is your problem

My second point is that the passage you quote itself shows that rather than it being a church decision, and it was often the political authorities who sent the unmarried mothers into Institutions because it was more cost efficient than providing relief for them in their own homes. The religious orders clearly benifited from this policy and were clearly often implemented it in a cruel and homicidal manner, and but they were still often acting as agents/contractors
for the state in the same way that G4S does in Britain today

Oh Fuck right off with your potificating. I've explained again and again how the church dominanted and controlled Irish culture. g4S aren't going about claiming to be god's divine representives on earth and the final moral authority in society.

 

[tim]

I've offered an explanation. The fact that I'm not going to pat you on the back is your problem



Oh Fuck right off with your potificating. I've explained again and again how the church dominanted and controlled Irish culture. g4S aren't going about claiming to be god's divine representives on earth and the final moral authority in society.

And you posted a newspaper article that shows that the reality was more nuanced than that cliché.

And whether I'm potificating or pontificating, I would never torpedo my own arguments in the absurd way that you did.

 

[krtek a houby]

The reality was that the Catholic Church abused generations of women and children. There were undoubtedly some who were aghast at the violence, raping of childrend and "morality" of treating women like animals but overall, it was the darkest of times.

 

[tim]

It's too easy just to blame the priests or the nuns or the tax drivers, or the BBC light entertainers or the Jews or the Muslims. Abuse happens because broader society condones or tolerate a it. The poor and the immoral get sent to homes because it keeps them away from decent people and it saves the public purse money.

Predators come from all walks of life buy they are allowed to predate because their victims are either socially or culturally marginalised

 

[Red Cat]

I've offered an explanation. The fact that I'm not going to pat you on the back is your problem

Oh Fuck right off with your potificating. I've explained again and again how the church dominanted and controlled Irish culture. g4S aren't going about claiming to be god's divine representives on earth and the final moral authority in society.

I don't understand your insistence here that it's all the Catholic church. Irish institutionalisation developed alongside institutionalisation elsewhere, initially as a British colony and then after 1922, funded and regulated by the state. What is to be gained by limiting the lens to the actions of the church?