mass grave of 800 infants found at Galway 'fallen women' home

[krtek a houby]

It's too easy just to blame the priests or the nuns or the tax drivers, or the BBC light entertainers or the Jews or the Muslims. Abuse happens because broader society condones or tolerate a it. The poor amd the immortal get sent to homes because it keeps them away from decent people and it saves the public purse money.

Predators come from all walks of life buy they are allowed to predate because their victims are either socially or culturally marginalised

I imagine the focus is on the RCC because of all the cover ups, the unwillingness to acknowledge the crimes committed and the authoritave grip they had on Ireland.
If you're suggesting that the focus is misguided because of the broader perspective, I would counter that by suggesting that the church had such an untouchable standing on Ireland for such a long time that it's hardly surprising there is a lot of anger and vitriol to it. Deal with the perpetrators of abuse first and then tackle the broader factors.

 

[8den]

I don't understand your insistence here that it's all the Catholic church. Irish institutionalisation developed alongside institutionalisation elsewhere, initially as a British colony and then after 1922, funded and regulated by the state. What is to be gained by limiting the lens to the actions of the church?

Because in 2002 in very suspicious circumstances the Irish state made an indemnity agreement with the church limiting the total amount of compensation they owe their victims. The Catholic Church agreed to hand over a pathetic total £128m in compensation for the victims of clerical abuse and the state would pick up the rest. This was before Tuam etc. It's quite clear that the scale of the abuse was much greater and the compensation owed may run into billions. No the less the Irish Religious orders have only paid 13% of that 128m. The Irish taxpayers will carry the can.

The current argument that "it was societies" fault is being perpetuated by the church and its apologists as part of their argument to avoid compensation.

Do you get why I'm pissed?

 

[tim]

This from today's news about a Scottish orphanage's death rate and it's burial policy Bodies of 'hundreds' of children buried in mass grave - BBC News

 

[equationgirl]

This from today's news about a Scottish orphanage's death rate and it's burial policy Bodies of 'hundreds' of children buried in mass grave - BBC News

Was just coming to post that.

The orphanage has been converted to flats and townhouses. Could not imagine living anywhere more creepy.

 

[StoneRoad]

Same here, I have just seen the BBC report.

In it, there is a reference to the Tuam investigation.

I am just as horrified by this tragedy ...

 

[butchersapron]

This really could be a long term project for all the local history groups in this country. I know a lot of them are currently doing WW1 stuff but, you know, sub-groups.

 

[equationgirl]

Same here, I have just seen the BBC report.

In it, there is a reference to the Tuam investigation.

I am just as horrified by this tragedy ...

I don't think tragedy is quite the right word, it seems to have been deliberate policy to starve children and deny them basic medical care. It's a form of genocide on those poorest and most vulnerable - this orphanage took a lot of deaf mute children from the accounts.

 

[pogofish]

In it, there is a reference to the Tuam investigation.

On the Radio report, they made it very clear that they used the Tuam method to determine the numbers involved - and indeed until Tuam, they had got nowhere with the investigation.

 

[8den]

I don't think tragedy is quite the right word, it seems to have been deliberate policy to starve children and deny them basic medical care. It's a form of genocide on those poorest and most vulnerable - this orphanage took a lot of deaf mute children from the accounts.

Accounts from Tuam show it is was both a working farm and the nuns collected a generous state benefit for each child every month(and continued to collect benefits for dead children long after they died). The idea that many children died from malnutrition in those circumstances can't be considered accidental.

 

[Celyn]

It's so damn horrific that these children were thought to be in a place of safety, security, given a fine upstanding upbringing etc etc. Sick that those religious could pretend they were all for good ethical behaviour blah blah, when in fact they were often killers.

Often I wish to believe in that whole "Hell" thing, so as to be able to believe certain people were there, being poked by demons or whatever. And fire and torment - all that thing.

 

[Idaho]

Often I wish to believe in that whole "Hell" thing, so as to be able to believe certain people were there, being poked by demons or whatever. And fire and torment - all that thing.

It's strange that the perpetrators of these crimes were all very religious people with strong convictions about this kind of thing - and yet must have managed to integrate (and presumably accept) this violence within their beliefs. Humans are weird.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't think tragedy is quite the right word, it seems to have been deliberate policy to starve children and deny them basic medical care. It's a form of genocide on those poorest and most vulnerable - this orphanage took a lot of deaf mute children from the accounts.

Deaf mute an offensive term Community and Culture – Frequently Asked Questions

 

[Pickman's model]

It's strange that the perpetrators of these crimes were all very religious people with strong convictions about this kind of thing - and yet must have managed to integrate (and presumably accept) this violence within their beliefs. Humans are weird.

If you find this weird wait until you discover jihadis not to mention the crusades

 

[Celyn]

It's strange that the perpetrators of these crimes were all very religious people with strong convictions about this kind of thing - and yet must have managed to integrate (and presumably accept) this violence within their beliefs. Humans are weird.

I suppose when you have that (rather convenient) certainty that all you do is by definition good because you are a follower of this or that supreme god, anything goes.

 

[Celyn]

If you find this weird wait until you discover jihadis not to mention the crusades

Coming soon! For the new school term, the "Ladybird" book of "Violence and Torture Through the Ages".

 

[equationgirl]

Deaf mute an offensive term Community and Culture – Frequently Asked Questions

Apologies, I thought I'd written deaf and mute, apparently some were 'only' deaf. Some were blind. I won't use the term again.

 

[tim]

It's so damn horrific that these children were thought to be in a place of safety, security, given a fine upstanding upbringing etc etc. Sick that those religious could pretend they were all for good ethical behaviour blah blah, when in fact they were often killers.

Often I wish to believe in that whole "Hell" thing, so as to be able to believe certain people were there, being poked by demons or whatever. And fire and torment - all that thing.

I doubt if people really thought they were in a place of safety. The nineteenth century best-selling, Oliver Twist was written in the 1830s and anyone who'd read would have know the reality of life and death for children on the margins of society.

Occasionally, when there was some more than usually interesting inquest upon a parish child who had been overlooked in turning up a bedstead, or inadvertently scalded to death when there happened to be a washing — though the latter accident was very scarce, anything approaching to a washing being of rare occurance in the farm — the jury would take it into their heads to ask troublesome questions, or the parishioners would rebelliously affix their signatures to a remonstrance. But these impertinences were speedily checked by the evidence of the surgeon, and the testimony of the beadle; the former of whom had always opened the body and found nothing inside (which was very probable indeed), and the latter of whom invariably swore whatever the parish wanted; which was very self-devotional. Besides, the board made periodical pilgrimages to the farm, and always sent the beadle the day before, to say they were going. The children were neat and clean to behold, when THEY went; and what more would the people have!/QUOTE]

 

[Idaho]

If you find this weird wait until you discover jihadis not to mention the crusades

For some reason I find the personal contradiction more weird than violent mob psychology.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Call for grounds of former orphanage in Galway to be investigated

Listening to the radio now...people speaking about the horrendous abuse their relatives experienced.
Physical beatings....awful assaults ... Regimentation...forcing little children to work for hours and hours....
Children dying as a result of beatings....
They're talking about Daingean too...another hell home.


Sickening...

One woman talking about her father who was put into Daingean after robbing a pound of butter...poor lad thought it at as ice cream. He was left in Daingean for a couple of years...beaten...sexually abused...and he himself became violent as an adult and beat his own children. ....how many were damaged by the abuse...the repercussions span generations.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Exhumation of former Tuam mother and baby home announced

"Remains at the Tuam Mother and Babies Home should be exhumed, identified where possible and reburied", Minister for Children Katherine Zappone announced today.
At its meeting this morning, the Government approved Ms Zappone’s proposal to a “phased approach to the forensic excavation and recovery of the juvenile human remains insofar as this is possible”.

It's taken a long time for this to happen. And will take a few more months before work can start

 

[Pickman's model]

The Irish govt trying to bury secrets

Government Cannot Be Allowed To Bury The Dirty Secrets Of The Mother And Baby Homes — Éirígí For A New Republic

Despite government claims to the contrary, the passing of the Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill on Thursday was designed to

eirigi.org

 

[Sue]

'The grim history of a network of religious institutions in Ireland that abused and shamed unmarried mothers and their children for much of the 20th century is to be laid bare.

A judicial commission of investigation into Ireland’s mother and baby homes has documented shocking death rates and callousness in institutions that doubled as orphanages and adoption agencies.

The mother and baby homes commission is to share a 3,000-page report with survivors of the system on Tuesday. Its five-year investigation was prompted by the discovery of a mass grave of babies and children in Tuam, County Galway.

The taoiseach, Michéal Martin, is to give a formal state apology in the Dáil on Wednesday. Martin, who has read the report, reportedly found the contents shocking and difficult to read.

It estimates 9,000 children died in 18 institutions between 1922 and 1998 when the last such home closed, according to a leak published in the Sunday Independent. The infant mortality rate is said to have been double the national rate, underlining the impact of neglect, malnutrition and disease.'

Report to reveal scale of abuse at Ireland's mother and baby homes

Results of investigation expected to tell how 9,000 children died in 18 institutions between 1922 and 1998

www.theguardian.com

 

[cupid_stunt]

Sadly most of the crimes conducted by the Catholic Church have gone unpunished, I am just glad those abusers & peados have lost their control over the state in Ireland,

 

[DaveCinzano]

The stats are horrific. The individual stories behind them, terrifying

‘I was born in a jail and I spent years in a jail. I got no love, no care, no education’ – harrowing testimonies from inside Mother and Baby Homes

In the early 1970s, a young Irish woman arrived home to find three people dressed in black standing in the kitchen. The woman, who was living with her aunt in London at the time, had confided in her aunt that she was pregnant.

amp.independent.ie

 

[Lurdan]

Report is now published. 2865 pages.
PDF file (21.9mb)

At a first glance some of the efforts at 'balance' are a little off-putting. For example

Ireland appears to be the only country where large numbers of unmarried pregnant women left their native country. However, it must be acknowledged that many of their fellow citizens also emigrated.

There is no evidence that women were forced to enter mother and baby homes by the church or State authorities. Most women had no alternative.

However it's hardly possible to sugar coat the findings

The very high rate of infant mortality (first year of life) in Irish mother and baby homes is probably the most disquieting feature of these institutions. The death rate among ‘illegitimate’ children was always considerably higher than that among ‘legitimate’ children but it was higher still in mother and baby homes: in the years 1945-46, the death rate among infants in mother and baby homes was almost twice that of the national average for ‘illegitimate’ children. A total of about 9,000 children died in the institutions under investigation - about 15% of all the children who were in the institutions. In the years before 1960 mother and baby homes did not save the lives of ‘illegitimate’ children; in fact, they appear to have significantly reduced their prospects of survival. The very high mortality rates were known to local and national authorities at the time and were recorded in official publications.

 

[Artaxerxes]

My piss is boiled.

Ireland was a cold harsh environment for many, probably the majority, of its residents during the earlier half of the period under remit. It was especially cold and harsh for women. All women suffered serious discrimination. Women who gave birth outside marriage were subject to particularly harsh treatment. Responsibility for that harsh treatment rests mainly with the fathers of their children and their own immediate families. It was supported by, contributed to, and condoned by, the institutions of the State and the Churches. However, it must be acknowledged that the institutions under investigation provided a refuge - a harsh refuge in some cases - when the families provided no refuge at all.

 

[Artaxerxes]

This hit me hard

 

[marty21]

This was very upsetting , my mum was pregnant with me before she got married (she claims I was premature ) . Had my dad not married her , she might well have gone back to Ireland to her religious father , and this could have happened to me. Lots of ifs and buts I know, but children born in Ireland to unmarried mums in 1965 could have ended up in one of those homes

 

[spanglechick]

It’s only just occurred to me how revolting the word “illegitimate” is when applied to people. The whole notion that “illegitimate children” could somehow not be legitimately considered proper people. Ugh.

 

[bendeus]

This was very upsetting , my mum was pregnant with me before she got married (she claims I was premature ) . Had my dad not married her , she might well have gone back to Ireland to her religious father , and this could have happened to me. Lots of ifs and buts I know, but children born in Ireland to unmarried mums in 1965 could have ended up in one of those homes

This struck me, also. I was born outside marriage in 1973 (not in Ireland) and suffered from the stigma of that fact during my childhood. To think that only a decade or so before, in a place not so far away, I could have been condemned to a childhood of abuse and, possibly, early death for that simple fact is heart-rending. Fuck the Catholic Church, peace to its casualties and strength to its survivors.