Mark Duggan shooting inquest in London finally starts...

[xes]

its a fair comparison isn't it? police filmed doing a mass beatdown on one bloke, aquittal of those who did it sparks massive riots, anyone caught rioting or post riot slapped with a huge stretch

another case with suss numerology (7777)

 

[scalyboy]

The excuse for use is the former, the actual reason is the latter.

So is the intention that they expand/explode inside the body? And cause greater injury?

 

[ffsear]

A hit with a fully-jacketed assault rifle or pistol round is traumatic enough that there's little difference in the speed of "taking an assailant out". Hollow points are unnecessary unless you're looking to make kill shots every time, which is why game hunters use them.

Don't hollow points tend to stay in the target though? SO used more in urban situations


edit: seen already answered

 

[phildwyer]

That Littlejohn article (posted upthread) said the jury was mostly young people and some were mixed race. But, y'know, that was what Littlejohn said, so...

That's about as openly racist an article as the British press will publish.

But nevertheless, it's hard to believe he'd get away with straight-up lying. So presumably this is true:

"The jury comprised seven women and three men from North London, including the Borough of Haringey, where Duggan lived. They were mostly young and many were mixed race, just like Duggan himself, chosen to reflect the diversity of the area."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...angster-not-Nelson-Mandela.html#ixzz2q0hc5sPD

In which case the verdict is truly inexplicable.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So is the intention that they expand/explode inside the body? And cause greater injury?

Yes. If you use them for game hunting, you use them in the knowledge that when you shoot a deer behind its left shoulder, the bullet will punch through the ribcage, start to expand out through the opening in the jacket of the bullet due to the impact, and to have "mushroomed to full expansion as it hits the heart, dumping about 75% of the bullet's remaining energy into the heart muscle and basically turning it into mince.
They don't, however, "explode".
Picture to give you some idea of the expansion capacity.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Don't hollow points tend to stay in the target though? SO used more in urban situations


edit: seen already answered

TBF, if the police really wanted to make sure of stopping someone, while using a round that wouldn't over-penetrate, they could easily have carried on using their old Webley & Scott .32 auto pistols (which they used from about 1911 until the '80s), which were powerful enough to stop someone, but not to over-penetrate anything larger than a labrador.

 

[brogdale]

"The jury comprised seven women and three men from North London, including the Borough of Haringey, where Duggan lived. They were mostly young and many were mixed race, just like Duggan himself, chosen to reflect the diversity of the area."

In which case the verdict is truly inexplicable.

I don't see what bearing the demographic of the jury has upon the verdict. If the law determines a killing as lawful, when based upon the 'honest' belief of the police, it is possible to explain how the jurors were encouraged to chose the verdict they did...irrespective of their ethnicity. Wrong, maybe, but not inexplicable.

 

[DrRingDing]

When we've finished penetrating labradors can we get back to the case in hand.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Hat tip to Mr Bone.... he reminds us of the power of genetics; Littlejohn's father was filth.

Won't be a proper RL success unless she kills herself. Doubtless if she complains to the PCC then fuck all will happen.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Fuckin hell.... that is properly disgusting. How the actual fuck did that get printed?

Because it's encouraged.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The thing is, from the perspective of the safety of your army, taking an assailant out of the game a second or 5 quicker can make a huge difference. And I've seen the kind of damage a jacketed round from an MP5 will do on a slab of ballistic gel unless it's a graze it's either an amputation or a fatality without body armour.

We've got to the point where I know longer know what I'm talking about. My research only got me as far as the revelation that UK police routinely carry expanding rounds of a type prohibited for military use by the Hague convention.

 

[leanderman]

Some astonishing knowledge of firearms being shown here!

 

[Belushi]

Some astonishing knowledge of firearms being shown here!

There's quite a few ex squaddies on here.

 

[kikiscrumbles]

Lads lads lads - are you through with all the ammo porn yet? Is nobody else listening open-mouthed at the ASTONISHING PR coup of creating a Posh-o Tory news story spin to distract the masses from all this? I mean... 'But how can we possibly trust the police now?' (then stern radio 4 voice intones) 'A Tory politician has lost his career.. a policeman his job.' Then the pretty posh blonde daughter sobs - quite literally, Mr Plebgate's daughter said just now: 'All of a sudden, we realised something was very, very wrong - that we could no longer trust the police. It was simply devastating for our family, I don't think we'll recover...'

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK - It seems they are going to punish a polis for fibbing a bit about a shouty sweary posh-o (who freely admits to 'fucking' but not 'plebs').
Yet the LYING BASTARDS who colluded in the murder of a man they had every chance to arrest and bring to trial - and who they clearly set up, given the fact that they surveilled him collecting a gun but didn't apprehend him nor the supplier at that point... ACH!! words fail me. It's all just as cynical as I suspected. It's truly despair-making. Would be ironic or summat if it weren't so just awful. Sad slump...

 

[likesfish]

[quote="8ball,

edit2: I'm aware this is a bit of a crap post, still kind of thinking aloud over why munitions banned in warfare are ok for use on civilians[/quote]

Because the rules were made over a 100 years ago and were set up to in the belief that two european armies batter the hell out of each could be relied on to play by the rules.

Criminals and terrorists dont play by any rules so not get protection by the rules.

 

[barney_pig]

Criminals and terrorists dont play by any rules so not get protection by the rules.

Like failing to to had anything to do with the guns that the pigs say they were waving at them?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

There's quite a few ex squaddies on here.

Is that Sass with the medic's bag?

 

[Belushi]

Nah, Sas is standing to his left.

 

[likesfish]

The rules were set up over a hundred years ago one of the first attempts at international law.
It makes a very good sense to use hollow points in say hostage rescue you can shoot the bad guy and the bullet will stay in them rather than going straight through and hitting someone else.

 

[likesfish]

Is that Sass with the medic's bag?

i used to be the one on the right with the scarf

 

[littlebabyjesus]

LYING BASTARDS who colluded in the murder of a man they had every chance to arrest and bring to trial - and who they clearly set up, given the fact that they surveilled him collecting a gun but didn't apprehend him nor the supplier at that point... A.

This is a very good point. The police's own story contains this central question - why did they let him take the gun away with him? Arresting him then and there would have meant charging him with something far more serious than anything he had ever been convicted for previously.

However, it is not a fact that he did this. The police - those same lying, self-serving police - say that he did this. Very different thing.

 

[Anonymous1]

Criminals and terrorists dont play by any rules so not get protection by the rules.

What about suspects yet to see a court room?

How many more deaths without bothering with the judicial process will it take until this may be seen as 'a bit much'?

And fuck off with your 'hostage situation' trying to twist it even further. This is about armed police killing unarmed individuals on the street who are unlikely to survive due to the nature of the ammo used. Any reaction to a hostage situation would be well planned out and so have time to decide if other ammo was more suitable.

I think the the obvious point the thread is showing that the scum don't play by the rules, far fucking from it. In doing so they make a mockery of them more than any civvy could.

 

[brogdale]

Filth whinging on again to the Guardian...
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/10/mark-duggan-metropolitan-police-fiirearms-chief

In a Guardian interview, Commander Neil Basu condemned a "ground swell of opinion" that his officers should automatically be treated as criminals for opening fire during the course of their lawful duties..... "As head of armed policing in London this has been an extremely difficult experience, but an awful experience for the family," Basu added.

...and this is Basu (apparently) siding with the family...

But in a surprise intervention Basu, commander for armed policing in London, sided with the Duggan family in condemning as distasteful some media comments suggesting Duggan deserved to be shot because of his alleged criminal past....
Basu criticised media comment suggesting Duggan deserved to be shot because he was a "gangster".....Basu said: "I don't think anyone deserve to die because they are a 'gangster', I think that is distasteful."

So still ramming that story home, then Basu?

ACAlyingB

 

[littlebabyjesus]

About Mark's age. He was 29. Handling stolen goods was the only thing on his criminal record, aside from possession of cannabis. Nothing violent and nothing serious. He'd never been in jail.

And yet … he was one of Europe's 46 most dangerous criminals. He was 29 - presumably he'd been going for a few years already working his way up to supercriminal status, and all without a single conviction for anything violent at all.

It's an odd one to claim - to make this claim is to admit that you (the police) are utter failures in your job. It is to make yourself look silly if it's true. It's what politicians do when caught out - ask people to believe that they are morons rather than cunts. But this is not an individual politician. It is the whole Met police. Making something up that makes them look like fools, they find themselves in such a desperate hole. .

And if they had any real muck on him, they would have been leaking it like mad for ages. But they don't. So they haven't. The opposite is happening. The likes of the Mail are making far more moderate claims now than they were - someone's told them that the stuff they were reporting two years ago was bullshit. They are just resorting to simple racism now.

Let's not forget Kevin Hutchinson-Foster, too. Jailed for 11 years on the back of perjured testimony from the police.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Prime Minister David Cameron welcomed [plebgate plod's] guilty plea but said it was "completely unacceptable for a serving police officer to falsify an account of any incident".

Utterly staggering that he can say such things with a straight face.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Utterly staggering that he can say such things with a straight face.

'Black day for the met' a headline on the BBC front page. Of Mark Duggan, not a single word today on the front page. I looked quite thoroughly thinking there must be somewhere.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Filth whinging on again to the Guardian...
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/10/mark-duggan-metropolitan-police-fiirearms-chief

I think we can all agree that gun cops are the true victims in this whole sorry affair.

 

[kikiscrumbles]

About Mark's age. He was 29. Handling stolen goods was the only thing on his criminal record, aside from possession of cannabis. Nothing violent and nothing serious. He'd never been in jail.

And yet … he was one of Europe's 46 most dangerous criminals. He was 29 - presumably he'd been going for a few years already working his way up to supercriminal status, and all without a single conviction for anything violent at all.

It's an odd one to claim - to make this claim is to admit that you (the police) are utter failures in your job. It is to make yourself look silly if it's true. It's what politicians do when caught out - ask people to believe that they are morons rather than cunts. But this is not an individual politician. It is the whole Met police. Making something up that makes them look like fools, they find themselves in such a desperate hole. .

And if they had any real muck on him, they would have been leaking it like mad for ages. But they don't. So they haven't. The opposite is happening. The likes of the Mail are making far more moderate claims now than they were - someone's told them that the stuff they were reporting two years ago was bullshit. They are just resorting to simple racism now.

Let's not forget Kevin Easton, too. Jailed for 11 years on the back of perjured testimony from the police.

 

[SpookyFrank]

i used to be the one on the right with the scarf

I always had you down as more of a Corporal Jones figure.

And reading Violent Panda's posts in your head in the voice of Sergeant Wilson works uncannily well

 

[Lemon Eddy]

The excuse for use is the former, the actual reason is the latter.

You use hollow point because it's the best compromise for both of the above points. If you just want maximum trauma and damn the collateral, you use jacketed with a larger calibre. That way you'd still inflict overkill levels of trauma, and not have a problem if you were shooting at someone either armoured or in a car.