Mark Duggan shooting inquest in London finally starts...

[littlebabyjesus]

It's not a sidetrack.

This looks like a case of jury nullification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

This is irrelevant. The jury did not make a stand against the law. They did make a stand against logic.

 

[phildwyer]

This is irrelevant. The jury did not make a stand against the law. They did make a stand against logic.

That is precisely what makes it relevant:

"Jury nullification occurs in a trial when a jury acquits a defendant they believe to be guilty of the charges against them."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

 

[Pickman's model]

Seriously Pickman's: Not Here. OK?

i'll hold you to that promise.

 

[Pickman's model]

That is precisely what makes it relevant:

"Jury nullification occurs in a trial when a jury acquits a defendant they believe to be guilty of the charges against them."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

oh dear. one post on and you seem to be in full sidetrack mode. what about the promise you made not to sidetrack the thread?

 

[Fuchs66]

Er.... you can have non lethal projectiles, rubber bullets etc (although I do understand people have died as a result of impact by a rubber bullet).

You can also hit them with a pillow. Not quite sure what you're getting at as baton rounds and live ammunition are very different tools for different jobs, requiring different equipment.

 

[Dan U]

potentially interesting story on Guido

don't know if it warrants a thread/or if its even related to Duggan but the Home Office are refusing to deny Hogan-Howe tendered his resignation over a coming scandal.

 

[Pickman's model]

potentially interesting story on Guido

don't know if it warrants a thread/or if its even related to Duggan but the Home Office are refusing to deny Hogan-Howe tendered his resignation over a coming scandal.

not a wholehearted confirmation tho

 

[butchersapron]

potentially interesting story on Guido

don't know if it warrants a thread/or if its even related to Duggan but the Home Office are refusing to deny Hogan-Howe tendered his resignation over a coming scandal.

Hillsborough related maybe? Rather than this?

 

[Dan U]

Hillsborough related maybe? Rather than this?

Yeah that did cross my mind.

Some within the Tory party will be itching to bring in a US 'super cop' I should think, didn't they change the rules to allow them to appoint someone from overseas?

anyway, i don't want to derail this thread, just felt it worth posting somewhere.

 

[SpookyFrank]

What is the indication that the jury thought the police were lying?

They decided that Duggan was not holding a gun when he was killed. The officer who shot him, in his testimony to the inquest, described in some detail the gun he was holding, and exactly what he did with it.

So the man who pulled the trigger lied, in the opinion of the jury.

 

[8ball]

They decided that Duggan was not holding a gun when he was killed. The officer who shot him, in his testimony to the inquest, described in some detail the gun he was holding, and exactly what he did with it.

So the man who pulled the trigger lied, in the opinion of the jury.

That would seem to be more a matter of uncertainty about the exact point at which the gun-teleportation-singularity formed.

 

[SpookyFrank]

That's the heart of it: The jury knew that an unlawful killing verdict would brand him a murderer.

Not necessarily. There was a verdict of unlawful killing in the Ian Tomlinson case but the man who inflicted his fatal injuries was not charged with manslaughter but gross misconduct or something. In fact I don't think he was even charged with a criminal offence, just put before an internal plod disciplinary hearing and sacked (for the second time).

 

[SpookyFrank]

That would seem to be more a matter of uncertainty about the exact point at which the gun-teleportation-singularity formed.

Neither the verdict nor V53's testimony is unclear. Yet they contradict each other and both are true.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not necessarily. There was a verdict of unlawful killing in the Ian Tomlinson case but the man who inflicted his fatal injuries was not charged with manslaughter but gross misconduct or something. In fact I don't think he was even charged with a criminal offence, just put before an internal plod disciplinary hearing and sacked (for the second time).

One of the very many unsettling things about this verdict is that the man who killed Mark Duggan may very well still be walking the streets of London with a gun in his hand.

 

[8ball]

Neither the verdict nor V53's testimony is unclear. Yet they contradict each other and both are true.

I've gone over the court transcripts again - I guess they could believe V53 mis-remembered the exact sequence of events in the heat of the moment (which is pretty common), but the case would remain that there would be no reason to believe all sorts of other things weren't mis-remembered and so it would have to be an open verdict. The only thing going for the police testimony is that at least they all got their story straight ie. V53's testimony matches that of W70's pretty well re: the magic gun.

 

[SpookyFrank]

One of the very many unsettling things about this verdict is that the man who killed Mark Duggan may very well still be walking the streets of London with a gun in his hand.

Well he did nothing wrong so why wouldn't he be?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well he did nothing wrong so why wouldn't he be?

In line for some kind of medal, perhaps.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I've gone over the court transcripts again - I guess they could believe V53 mis-remembered the exact sequence of events in the heat of the moment (which is pretty common), but the case would remain that there would be no reason to believe all sorts of other things weren't mis-remembered and so it would have to be an open verdict. The only thing going for the police testimony is that at least they all got their story straight ie. V53's testimony matches that of W70's pretty well re: the magic gun.

So all the officers present mis-remembered the same thing in the same way? On the balance of probability it seems more likely that they were simply bullshitting.

 

[SpookyFrank]

In line for some kind of medal, perhaps.

More likely he's been off sick on full pay ever since, citing 'operational exhaustion' or something.

 

[ffsear]

look at yourselves



its a nice day

 

[8ball]

So all the officers present mis-remembered the same thing in the same way?

It could be read to suggest that what they all saw was consistent and that their training led them to the same interpretation. It could also be read to suggest that there was a bit of cognitive re-constructing going on where they concluded that V53 was initially mistaken, discussed with W70 later, who on some level being his mate thought Duggan must have had a gun by pure virtue of the fact that V53 had shot him and described the incident thus.

These are just speculations about the jury's thought processes, though. The bit that looks really smelly to me is the way V53 talks about his focus being on the gun like a laser beam, and the image being etched into his brain, yet this heavy bit of metal then gets chucked quite some distance by a man who is not yet known to have been effectively neutralised and he fails to notice this.

 

[Pickman's model]

look at yourselves



its a nice day

all the more reason not to spend time looking in the mirror

 

[DotCommunist]

look at yourselves



its a nice day

not for duggan it aint

 

[SpookyFrank]

. The bit that looks really smelly to me is the way V53 talks about his focus being on the gun like a laser beam, and the image being etched into his brain, yet this heavy bit of metal then gets chucked quite some distance by a man who is not yet known to have been effectively neutralised and he fails to notice this.

Yes and seems odd that the 'laser focus' he describes so memorably was directed to an object we know wasn't there.

Then there's the question of how you throw something so far after you've been shot in the chest. Again, hollowpoint rounds are designed for maximum stopping power, which is a gun catalogue's way of saying maximum probability of killing with a single shot.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

look at yourselves



its a nice day

Fuck off.

 

[8ball]

Then there's the question of how you throw something so far after you've been shot in the chest. Again, hollowpoint rounds are designed for maximum stopping power, which is a gun catalogue's way of saying maximum probability of killing with a single shot.

According to the jury Duggan did not have the gun at the point he was shot. Not that the media seems to have noticed this.

 

[ViolentPanda]

OK, so perusing the testimony of V53 seems to suggest that Duggan managed to hurl the gun thirty feet after he was shot in the chest. So, even with a hollowpoint round in him, his main concern is still disposing of evidence.

For those that don't know hollowpoint rounds are designed to transfer as much of the impact energy as possible directly to the target, so as to have a greater chance of killing that target with a single round. And after he's taken one of these in his chest, Mark Duggan has time to worry about the fact that the gun he's holding might get him in trouble. More trouble than he's already in. He somehow summons the strength to hurl his weapon away so fast that a man mere yards in front of him fails to see his arm move.

I know I'm going over the same ground a lot here but I'm still utterly dumbfounded that we're being expected to swallow this shit.

Just to add that a jacketed hollow point round (which is, in effect, only jacketed as far as the start of the hollow) transfers that energy through the lead core of the bullet extruding past the jacket in a mushroom-type shape. These rounds are generally used for game hunting. Fully jacketed ammunition is what is mandated for military use. It causes fewer surgical issues than unjacketed and JHP rounds. Most police services also use fully-jacketed ammo.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If you think everything in that Fail article is made up (which is possible ), why do you think the Met had targeted Duggan? Serious question BTW

If they deliberately targeted him for death, I'd take a guess at pour encourager les autres being the primary reason. His death wouldn't be enough to start a gang war, but the OB might see it as encouraging the local gangsters to be a bit more circumspect, unless they wanted a portion of police lead too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, if the police are into extrajudicial executions they are pretty 'unproductive'.

As the low numbers of police shootings show.

You mean, the ones we hear about, rather than the non-fatals, too?

This looks like a one-off tragedy to me.

Odd how these "one-off tragedies" keep happening though, isn't it?

 

[brogdale]

Bone has reminded me of something this morning.

I was able to follow the N24 live coverage of the hearing verdicts on Jan 8th and have to say that Judge Cutler's, slightly odd and unintelligble, remarks preceeding the verdicts left me in no uncertainty about the way the verdicts were going to pan out. Bone's contention is that the warm comments from judge to jury demonstrate the final example of a controlling, infantilising and overly directive relationship established over the course of the inquiry.

Here's Cutler's remarks:-

Firstly, I want to express sincere gratitude both on
12 my behalf and on behalf of the public as a whole for the

13 hard work that you, the jury, have put in. I speak for

14 all when I say that we have all been impressed by the

15 way you have performed your duty as jurors really over

16 a long period since September of last year now.

17 I also, secondly, want to inform you that I will

18 arrange for you to be sent letters from the Coroner's

19 offices which will excuse you from future jury service

20 for life, should you want to use that letter. You do

21 not have to but it is a mark of the fact that you have

22 performed such extensive jury service and in such

23 a difficult case that society now deems that you have

24 more than done your duty in this regard.

25 Thirdly, please remember that your deliberations as


20





1 a jury must remain confidential at all times, so please

2 do not talk about them with anyone. Of course you can

3 listen and watch any reporting of the case as happens

4 but please be very careful in discussing much about your

5 work as jurors in this case.

6 So really my great thanks for all your work. I will

7 miss you, indeed, having been with you twice now on

8 different views that we have had and spoken with you

9 during the course of the case. I want to have

10 a personal thank you for all that you have done.

Cutler (CBE) is, of course, a freemason.