Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Loughborough Junction chitter-chatter

CH1 said:
It does seem ironic that both South East trains and East Coast (London - Leeds-Newcastle-Edinburgh) were re-privatised recently despite greatly enhanced customer satisfaction after these franchises had to be handed by the default publicly owned "Direct Operated Railways".

It's almost as though the powers that be consider it heretical that a publicly owned service can be better than some outsourced outfit benefiting their mates in the city (or British Virgin Islands as the case may be).
Click to expand...

Where do you get this from? I hear this stated as "fact" quite often but this morning I decided to check out the actual figures. These are the percentages of passengers who rate their "overall satisfaction" as either satisfactory or good, from the bi-anual National Passenger Survey which seems to have run from 2005. I have taken figures from spring each year.

Firstly the figures have to be viewed in the context of a gradual increase across the whole network of 3-4 percentage points between 2005 and 2012 (most up to date graph I could find):
Screen Shot 2016-02-15 at 10.39.36.jpg

East Coast franchise (operated by publicly owned DOR 2009-2015) -
2005 86%
2006 90%
2007 87%
2008 86%
2009 87% (average 87.2% under private operation)
-----------------------
2010 88%
2011 87%
2012 86%
2013 86%
2014 91%
2015 94% (average 88.7% under public operation)
------------------------
[2005-2012 improvement of 0 in compared to nationwide improvement of about 3%]



Southeastern franchise (operated by publicly owned company 2003-2006) -
2005 71%
2006 77% (average 73.5% under public operation)
------------------
2007 74%
2008 79%
2009 76%
2010 81%
2011 82%
2012 81%
2013 78%
2014 72%
2015 75% (average 77.5% under private operation)
----------------
[2005-2012 improvement of +10% in compared to nationwide improvement of about 3%]


These figures don't seem to support your claim at all - am I missing something? The franchise that went from private to public under-performed compared to national average, and the one that went from public to private over-performed compared to the national average.
 
teuchter said:
Where do you get this from? I hear this stated as "fact" quite often but this morning I decided to check out the actual figures. These are the percentages of passengers who rate their "overall satisfaction" as either satisfactory or good, from the bi-anual National Passenger Survey which seems to have run from 2005. I have taken figures from spring each year.

Firstly the figures have to be viewed in the context of a gradual increase across the whole network of 3-4 percentage points between 2005 and 2012 (most up to date graph I could find):
View attachment 83471

East Coast franchise (operated by publicly owned DOR 2009-2015) -
2005 86%
2006 90%
2007 87%
2008 86%
2009 87% (average 87.2% under private operation)
-----------------------
2010 88%
2011 87%
2012 86%
2013 86%
2014 91%
2015 94% (average 88.7% under public operation)
------------------------
[2005-2012 improvement of 0 in compared to nationwide improvement of about 3%]



Southeastern franchise (operated by publicly owned company 2003-2006) -
2005 71%
2006 77% (average 73.5% under public operation)
------------------
2007 74%
2008 79%
2009 76%
2010 81%
2011 82%
2012 81%
2013 78%
2014 72%
2015 75% (average 77.5% under private operation)
----------------
[2005-2012 improvement of +10% in compared to nationwide improvement of about 3%]


These figures don't seem to support your claim at all - am I missing something? The franchise that went from private to public under-performed compared to national average, and the one that went from public to private over-performed compared to the national average.
Click to expand...
As soon as you put figures to it you are frigging the perceptions - a bit like drug trials.
Doesn't matter if Prozac makes 10% of respondents suicidal - because those ones are not reported on as they "discontinued" treatment.
The rest did brilliantly, no doubt - or at least 51% felt better.

You have quoted figures we know nothing about as regards the train service, and satisfaction therewith.

I reckon there are a couple of hoary old chestnuts here.

1. East Coast was "nationalised" in a protective move since Sea Containers the franchise holder was being placed in bankruptcy for reasons nothing to do with the train operation. Maybe East Coast had good satisfaction prior to nationalisation and simply continued to perform well?

2. SouthEast trains was makde public because the previous operator was sacked due to poor performance. Maybe people thought that the new management was better than the sacked management? We cannot from your figures - they do not allow that comparison.

Next time maybe you can consult on what figures to produce? Otherwise it all gets like a Lambeth Regeneration consultation.
 
CH1 said:
As soon as you put figures to it you are frigging the perceptions - a bit like drug trials.
Doesn't matter if Prozac makes 10% of respondents suicidal - because those ones are not reported on as they "discontinued" treatment.
The rest did brilliantly, no doubt - or at least 51% felt better.

You have quoted figures we know nothing about as regards the train service, and satisfaction therewith.
Click to expand...

Agreed figures like this can never tell the full story, but I'm presenting them in the absence of any backup for your claim - that there was "greatly enhanced satisfaction" when the companies were taken under public control.

CH1 said:
1. East Coast was "nationalised" in a protective move since Sea Containers the franchise holder was being placed in bankruptcy for reasons nothing to do with the train operation. Maybe East Coast had good satisfaction prior to nationalisation and simply continued to perform well?
Click to expand...
Sounds completely plausible and but doesn't support your claim - for which I can find no evidence.


CH1 said:
2. SouthEast trains was makde public because the previous operator was sacked due to poor performance. Maybe people thought that the new management was better than the sacked management? We cannot from your figures - they do not allow that comparison.
Click to expand...
True. I wasn't able to find figures previous to 2005. All I can say is that when handed back into private hands, things did not seem to go downhill. But again, where's your evidence for what you claimed? If there is some, I'll accept it.
 
teuchter said:
Agreed figures like this can never tell the full story, but I'm presenting them in the absence of any backup for your claim - that there was "greatly enhanced satisfaction" when the companies were taken under public control.

Sounds completely plausible and but doesn't support your claim - for which I can find no evidence.

True. I wasn't able to find figures previous to 2005. All I can say is that when handed back into private hands, things did not seem to go downhill. But again, where's your evidence for what you claimed? If there is some, I'll accept it.
Click to expand...
Maybe I think and feel about railways like many people apparently think and feel about grammar schools?
 
Looking for a spare room for a refugee.

Syrian man who has spent 7 months (!) in the jungle and has crossed. He doesn't speak much English and has been through a lot so it would be great if he could stay here in London close to a large group of friends who have all crossed- they will teach him English for a start! The NASS people will send him somewhere random up north in his own.

Can anyone help? Needs to have an address the home office can send letters to so has to be legit, not a squat or sub let or anything
 
Just to lower the tone....

I notice some Urbanites are not averse to a bit of spesh. A while back I discovered that the LJ Costcutter almost next to the Co-op had Orangeboom imported premium at an advantageous price.

Imagine my shock this morning when I was about to bin a late night can when I noticed it had a bold 7.5 on it where formerly it was 8.5

There seemed to be no price reduction. I also now see that although the can has the exact same livery so to speak the description has changed from "Im ported Extra Strong" to "Imported Premium Strong".

Can the manufacturers in Belgium have suddenly become health-conscious, or maybe they have different options?
OB1.jpg
 
Wasn't there a drive recently to urge the makers of super strong lagers to reduce the alcohol content?
 
As far as I know they targeted all companies selling in the UK. Twas voluntary though. Think it was off the back of the suggested tax/abv ratio
 
Road was taped off on the corner of CHL and Barrington road junction this evening with some cops there.

Looked like bad accident with one of those food delivery mopeds.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CH1
I went to the LJ Neighbourhood planning forum post up a comment related to it on CHL thread. More suitable here.

Farm project.

Steering Group not set up yet. This is work in progress.

Comment that there needs to be transparency about what it discussed at the Steering Group so that the wider community in LJ know how this project is shaping up. For example recording what is said at Steering Group meetings and putting them online and also allowing silent observers to attend ( ie like at most Council meetings where public can attend).

Comment that there needs to be separate webpage for the LJ project. Not have it on the Future Brixton website as LJ is not part of Brixton. Apparently there is a LJ page on the Council website. Though I had not noticed it before.

LJ Masterplan

Said I was concerned the way "consultation" was used.

Specifically the consultation on the Brixton Central Masterplan. Where we are not told about NRs plans. That one officer had told me that we had signed up to this as people agreed that arches be improved.

My point I said was the danger of attending Council consultation events is the way that the Council could interpret results. I wanted clarity about wording of docs. Also the Council to be clear about its preferred options at the outset. Rather than trying to persuade people at consultation events that a certain option would be best whilst appearing to be just trying to get our views.

In LJ case I was concerned about the Adventure playground in LJ and the way that people were "consulted" about this.

My what I thought reasonably put comments did not go down at all well with officers or Cllr present.

The Cllr present actually said the arches in Atlantic road need doing up.

The airing of concerns like this does not go down well.

The officer said they had been back to the consultants Fluid about the adventure playground issue. Officer said he had not had satisfactory response and has gone back to them about this.

I did say I felt that at the consultation events the issue of the playground had been consulted on in such a way as to prod people in the direction of it being built on and sold off.

After meeting a few people said I was correct on this. That there will be a fight about the adventure playground.

Its not just the adventure playground imo. Its the way that Council see the land ( assets) they own as parcels of land they can sell off for short term monetary gain.

Both the officer and the Cllr present said there are no plans to sell off the site to a developer. Strictly speaking this is correct. What I am concerned about is that the finished masterplan will be used by Council to say that the local community wanted this. As I said at meeting its about how one interprets the wording.

The LJ masterplan is still being discussed internally by officers/ Cllrs. The projected date for the final consultation is from end of March for six weeks.

Herne Hill Road

There was someone from HHR who is concerned about speeding cars there. He was also governor at local school.

There is 20mph speed limit in Lambeth (? has this happened. Anyone know.)

( I do think traffic goes fast through LJ in general compared with Brixton.)

The rail station

The barriers are in place. It was clarified that the consultation on this was not about the barriers but about keeping the station manned or not.

Someone said with the amount of people using station at certain times its likely the barriers will be left open sometimes. This has happened at other stations.

There is idea of putting waiting room back. But do not raise your hopes.

Elam open space

The Council, due to cuts, is ending the locking up at night of open spaces. So either the local community take over the daily locking and unlocking or possible take down the fence surrounding it altogether.

Otherwise it seems that it may just remain unlocked at all times.

It was said this was unsatisfactory due to drug use etc taking place.

It was asked if police could make more patrols of the space now the Council were not locking it.

(Which is fair enough imo but does show that cuts in one place mean another service gets lumbered with the problem)

Fly tipping: rubbish

Someone from LJAG had got onto Council about lack of bins on street. Council are going to order some more and put them in place.

The Council are now using a company to go around looking at rubbish put out - fly tipping- and fining people. This has been done in other boroughs to stop rubbish being just dumped.

A word of warning. The zealous contractors are fining people for putting out there recycling to early. Which seems to me a bit off. Did say that if Council use outsourced companies that is how the make there money.

Calais road/ Padfield road

There is a consultation going on about these roads. Should be on Lambeth website. Did not catch entirely what this is about. I think these roads were closed in the original road closure scheme.
 
Also at the LJ Neighbourhood Planning Forum there was a report back from the Steering Group for improvements to the junction.

The Steering Group met before the LJ planning forum. I didn’t get an invite so didn’t attend.

From talking to someone from Lambeth Cyclists afterwards it went better than the last one.

  • There are agreement for a raised surface of the road around the cross roads. Not sure how far this will go up.
  • Phasing of lights needs to be looked at.
  • Make junction safer. ( not sure how exactly)
  • The rest of us will be consulted April/ May.
  • There need to be a plan for consultation.

The issue of overlapping consultations. ie LJ masterplan and Junction improvements. The ordinary public will not necessarily keep these separate. And this make consultation more difficult.
 
Last edited:
Found the minutes of the steering group on the road improvements and also the consultation on Padfield and Calais road:

Loughborough junction - what you need to know | Lambeth Council

Also docs with responses to the road closure trial from different groups.


As you will no doubt have noticed, while Loughborough Road, Barrington Road, Gordon Grove and Lilford Road have reopened following experimental closures last year, Padfield Road and Calais Street have remained closed to motor vehicles. We have modified the experimental order relating to these two roads and a statutory consultation is now underway.

The modification to the experimental order will:

- Extend the experimental order that bans vehicles (other than pedal cycles) from entering or leaving Calais Street at its junction with Cormont Road and Halsmere Road.
- Extend the experimental order that closes Padfield Road to vehicles (other than pedal cycles).
- Extend the experimental order that bans waiting (parking) at any time in Loughborough Road between Styles Gardens and Ridgway Road.
- Formally re-open Loughborough Road, Barrington Road, Gordon Grove and Lilford Road.

The extensions are to run for a further 6 months, but with a 3-month review that will take place in order to assess the effectiveness of the closures and waiting restrictions before making a final decision to make them permanent.

As there has been much concern locally about the Calais Street and Padfield Road, Lambeth Council are now inviting people to express their views about these respective roads by taking part in this short survey.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
teuchter said:
Meanwhile - for those interested in the Higgs site - it appears the developers may have gone bust:

Higgs Triangle Loughbourough Junction redevelopment
Click to expand...

Oh dear. What a shame. Remind me to pour one out for them.

tumblr_mku6266ycG1s5ty3yo1_500.gif
 
Gramsci said:
Herne Hill Road

There was someone from HHR who is concerned about speeding cars there. He was also governor at local school.

There is 20mph speed limit in Lambeth (? has this happened. Anyone know.)

( I do think traffic goes fast through LJ in general compared with Brixton.)
Click to expand...

Police dotted along HHR last Friday morning - from above the school down to Padfield Road - some lurking behind front hedges, some standing openly by side of the road. Assumed they were out to spot speeding - unless anyone knows different?

I was doing steady 20 all the way through so no problem - much to annoyance of white van 0.00000001cm behind me
 
A lot of cars really do speed down the bottom end of HHR, especially at night when the road is not busy. Somehow despite the speed bumps. I fear a nasty accident will happen at some point. It's already the case that there are quite frequently minor collisions on the junction of Wanless Rd / HHR (although this has perhaps improved a bit since the building on the corner has been finished, and the hoardings - which obstructed the view a bit - taken down.
 
teuchter said:
A lot of cars really do speed down the bottom end of HHR, especially at night when the road is not busy. Somehow despite the speed bumps. I fear a nasty accident will happen at some point. It's already the case that there are quite frequently minor collisions on the junction of Wanless Rd / HHR (although this has perhaps improved a bit since the building on the corner has been finished, and the hoardings - which obstructed the view a bit - taken down.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't it be a good idea if there were some sort of traffic management system needed at the bottom of HHR where it leads towards Loughborough Road?

Oh.............
 
Harbourite said:
Police dotted along HHR last Friday morning - from above the school down to Padfield Road - some lurking behind front hedges, some standing openly by side of the road. Assumed they were out to spot speeding - unless anyone knows different?

I was doing steady 20 all the way through so no problem - much to annoyance of white van 0.00000001cm behind me
Click to expand...

A rare London car journey for me (probably once a month on average) includes driving up York Way to Holloway. It's had a 20mph limit for a couple of years. Almost every time I drive up there I get very annoyed drivers siting right on my tail and sometimes overtaking dangerously - the road used to be a quick cut through heading north and they *really* don't like being held up. It's the only time in London I feel in danger of being on the receiving end of road rage. Once I even had a TfL bus overtake me!

It'll be interesting to see whether the culture changes when more boroughs go fully 20mph.
 
Harbourite said:
Police dotted along HHR last Friday morning - from above the school down to Padfield Road - some lurking behind front hedges, some standing openly by side of the road. Assumed they were out to spot speeding - unless anyone knows different?

I was doing steady 20 all the way through so no problem - much to annoyance of white van 0.00000001cm behind me
Click to expand...

Pretty sure its to spot the speeding.

So its 20mph there?
 
Winot said:
A rare London car journey for me (probably once a month on average) includes driving up York Way to Holloway. It's had a 20mph limit for a couple of years. .
Click to expand...

Didnt know that. I cycle that way sometimes and the traffic go fast on that road. The speed limits in London are regularly ignored.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

teuchter
New development at Hardess St / Wellfit St, Loughborough Junction: 2024 planning application
2 3 4 5
Replies
128
Views
6K
teuchter
teuchter
Rushy
Petition to make busy Effra Road / Brixton Water Lane junction safer for pedestrians
Replies
18
Views
1K
Zapp Brannigan
Zapp Brannigan
editor
Major fire on Loughborough estate
Replies
14
Views
2K
Not a Vet
N
editor
Cambria pub in Loughborough Junction is closed and boarded up
Replies
27
Views
3K
cuppa tee
cuppa tee
teuchter
Higgs Development, Loughborough Junction (2019 design)
2 3 4
Replies
90
Views
9K
WouldBe
WouldBe
Back
Top Bottom