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London Underground Safety

Do you feel safe on London underground platforms?

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It really is unacceptable how I'm always ganged up on when ever I enter a transport thread. What truly pathetic and juvenile behaviour. Apparently this is all "my fault", even though I've done zero wrong in this thread, and nothing to do with internet bullying.

Apparently, I'm "wrong" even though the information doesn't come from me, and apparently I should be ashamed for asking the pretty obvious question of why, if the screens are there to stop people getting onto tracks, then why aren't there at all the stations. Apparently, that doesn't need an answer because the "the world" (2 people in an Urban75 thread) say it doesn't.................................

From our perspective as tunnel engineers the PED are there for ventilation, airflow and safety reasons. It was discussed on another thread that I can't now find how the tube acts as a giant piston on the older stations - I say the older stations as primarily they're a lot smaller in diameter than the new tunnels we're building and so there's no room for escape paths, or as much room for the air to flow around the train, a quick google turns up this image of a Northern Line train exiting a tunnel up near Hendon:

Why_London_Underground_is_nicknamed_The_Tube.jpg


It's not ideal but it perhaps gives a good idea of the size of the trains and the tunnel lining on the older parts of the network. So going with that idea, and then adding the idea of retrofitting PED to the older parts of the network, Jubilee line included there just isn't the space to do it, and the costs will be massive. We're trying to upgrade Victoria Station at the moment without closing it and it's chaos, the same with the Crossrail stations where we're building new platforms and then linking them into existing construction.

The station platforms are obviously a larger diameter than the running tunnels, but not significantly larger and perhaps the biggest issue is that they simply weren't designed for the number of people using them now, or the numbers that are being envisaged for the next 5/10/15/20/25 years. You can't get into these stations and replace the cast iron linings easily, if at all without closing part of the platforms down or possibly the whole platform. That's not a viable proposal for many stations, it would simply cause too much disruption for all users, both at the closed stations and the stations that pick up the horde.

I'd also be surprised if you could significantly increase the loading on the old cast iron lining without further significant problems being encountered. We use a safety factor of somewhere around 1.6 these days (It differs for different things underground) but when these stations were designed the factor of safety might have been as low as 1.0 or 1.1 (anything over 1.0 is safe), you couldn't hang the PED from the crown of the tunnel similar to what we're doing here on Crossrail, and loading it all on the platform structure as they've done on the newer sections of the Jubilee line might require the whole platform to be rebuilt and potentially the lining to be replaced, an absolutely massive job.

I've gone back through the thread and i'm not totally sure what the question is, but in terms of PED it's not on all stations because at some it's not possible due to size limitations, it costs a fortune and if it only increases safety it's possibly not worth the investment, and now on Crossrail it's going to help ventilation, airflow AND increase safety at what are going to be some massive interchanges and stations.

Because the dual benefit of safety and airflow is deemed worth the cost, but the single benefit of safety is not.

Crispy has beaten me to it, but there's your tldr; version :)
 
It really is unacceptable how I'm always ganged up on when ever I enter a transport thread.

I don't like that either and this started with you and I. I left a thread a while ago where I saw you taking a pasting because I didn't want to be part of it.

That said, you are a total wanker and I now understand why you attract such obloquy.

Take a look at the way you interact with people. Then fuck off.
 
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It really is unacceptable how I'm always ganged up on when ever I enter a transport thread. What truly pathetic and juvenile behaviour. Apparently this is all "my fault", even though I've done zero wrong in this thread, and nothing to do with internet bullying.

Apparently, I'm "wrong" even though the information doesn't come from me, and apparently I should be ashamed for asking the pretty obvious question of why, if the screens are there to stop people getting onto tracks, then why aren't there at all the stations. Apparently, that doesn't need an answer because the "the world" (2 people in an Urban75 thread) say it doesn't.................................
I'm curious as to why you think everybody always disagrees with you. Everybody else is wrong, only you are right -- what's your theory as to why nobody else at all can appreciate your wonderful Truth? What is the motivation for this "ganging up", with its "thick" people making such obviously "stupid" statements?
 
I don't like that either and this started with you and I. I left a thread a while ago where I saw you taking a pasting because I didn't want to be part of it.

That said, you are a total wanker and I now understand why you attract such obloquy.

Um, this all started when you deliberately refused to answer the question I posed, then pretended you didn't know what I was talking about, and then decided to get abusive. It was YOU who started the agro in post#19, or have you forgotten where you called me a "fucking idiot" for no justifiable reason what so ever?

Take a look at the way you interact with people. Then fuck off.
I interact with people the same way they interact with me. If I get shit from people, they can expect shit back.

Let's take another example of the same treatment: the pram thread. I get accused of something I quite obviously haven't done, and then the wolfs smell blood, and before I know it I've got the Urban75 "hard guys" ganging up on me. How pathetic.

I'm curious as to why you think everybody always disagrees with you. Everybody else is wrong, only you are right -- what's your theory as to why nobody else at all can appreciate your wonderful Truth? What is the motivation for this "ganging up", with its "thick" people making such obviously "stupid" statements?

Why the fuck do you people keep saying it's me?? I've already fucking told you I got the info elsewhere.............
 
Why the fuck do you people keep saying it's me?? I've already fucking told you I got the info elsewhere.............
Why do you think "us people" keep saying it's you?

Is there anything at all that might be you? Or is the antagonism all just everybody else?
 
Why do you think "us people" keep saying it's you?

Is there anything at all that might be you? Or is the antagonism all just everybody else?
So I'm supposed to take abuse and say nothing am I??? Fuck off.

All I did in this thread was a) state something that had been stated elsewhere, and b) pose the obvious question that needed to be asked because of the opinions given here. And for that I've suffered pages of abuse. Apparently it's all my fault and nothing to do with the abuse that I received from post #19 onwards.
 
I interact with people the same way they interact with me. If I get shit from people, they can expect shit back.

This all started with me being perfectly polite to you. You then accused me of being evasive when I was anything but.

I don't think you and I have ever interacted before but you went on to suggest that 'being dumb was something I'm good at' and also that I previously manufactured a supposedly deceitful situation that I actually had nothing to do with.

I often wade-in on the side of the underdog and before now I had no axe to grind with you.

But you're a cock.
 
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This all started with me being perfectly polite to you. You then accused me of being evasive when I was anything but.
I asked you a direct question, and you evaded answering it and then pretended you didn't know what I was talking about. I asked you directly why, if the screens are there for passenger safety, they are not installed on all the extension stations. You came back with a bunch of stuff that had zero to do with that question.

I don't think you and I have ever interacted before but you went on to suggest that 'being dumb was something I'm good at'
AFTER you called me a "fucking idiot".................
 
I asked you a direct question, and you evaded answering it and then pretended you didn't know what I was talking about.

Bollocks.

I asked you directly why, if the screens are there for passenger safety, they are not installed on all the extension stations.

Nope. You suggested that the screens WERE NOT there for safety but for airflow. I replied that they were there for BOTH reasons and have been proven right by both Wikipedia and a tunnel engineer who's posting on this thread.

AFTER you called me a "fucking idiot".................

AFTER you started behaving like one.
 
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And there goes another potentially interesting thread...

Bungle73, I hope you'll take this in the spirit it's intended, but please remember what was said on the latter pages of this thread. You're as much sinned against as sinner most of the time, but you do tend to adopt an aggressive tone and you do have a habit of getting angry at the slightest provocation. Frankly, too, your habit of resorting to generalisations about what 'you people' think, drawing no distinction between those with an honest difference opinion from your own and those just lining up to stick the boot in, doesn't help either. On the latter note, though, those who've come onto this thread just to needle Bungle, please stop it.
 
Bollocks.
It's there at the beginning of the thread for all to see.

Nope. You suggested that the screens WERE NOT there for safety but for airflow. I replied that they were there for BOTH reasons.
Except that it wasn't me who suggested it, it was the bods over at RailUK. Something which I've said about a thousand times in this thread, but has been conveniently ignored. I wonder why that is............

AFTER you started behaving like one!
For daring to suggest you actually answer the question I asked?

I'm done with this thread. There's nothing for me here. No actual civilised conversation that I can be a part of. Unsubcribed.
 
Except that it wasn't me who suggested it ...
:confused:
Bungle73 said:
That's not what the screens are for - they're for airflow reasons.

That's you suggesting it ^^^^

Bungle73 said:
.... it was the bods over at RailUK. Something which I've said about a thousand times in this thread, but has been conveniently ignored. I wonder why that is............

I'm not sure what this means, or what RailUK is, but quickly scanning the thread again it seems you haven't mentioned it once, let alone 1000 times.

I think it's for the best that you've unsubscribed (but I know you're peeking ;)).

Have a nice weekend.
 
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The clearance between the train and the tunnel really isn't very much is it? What's that there, 6"-8"? I'd have thought that the train could rock that much sometimes. Do they often/ever hit the tunnel walls?
No, they don't. At least not when they're filled with passengers... :E

The tube is in a constant state of maintenance and engineering work and the engineering battery locomotives have to access the tunnels in the same way as the normal locos. On the other hand, when work which effects the envelope does take place I believe they drive the train back and forth, across the affected area to make sure that there are no snags. I can't say for certain what the case is as I don't work for LUL and haven't had much to do with our works that impact on the Northern Line, but I seem to recall the above from a presentation by LUL.

I imagine that snags are identified fairly often looking at the state of the shoulders of some of the older stock trains, we're dealing with construction that took place 20-150 years ago, there's not really a manual for how cast iron linings are going to react, or how the ribs and lagging method for the oldest tube lines are going to react to a constant state of construction above/nearby. Add into that the loading on the lining over those years with the difference in the water table between construction and now and it's very much a play it by ear scenario.

Obviously we have standards, rules, guidelines and the rest of the gubbins to help us along the way with what we do know, but there's only so much you can predict using computer models (built on empirical data) and centrifugal tests... Bit of a rambling answer, but hopefully it answers the question and gives a few more details :)
 
One issue they have with the oldest tunnels is that the clay around them has not only had the water table shift around, but has also been slowly baking in the waste heat of 100 years of train engines and brakes. As any potter will tell you, when clay bakes, it shrinks. This means that the tunnel linings can end up literally rattling around. They have to pump grout into the gaps to prevent it.
 
That's not what the screens are for - they're for airflow reasons. No doubt someone will come along to dispute this later, but it's a fact. This is pretty evident by the fact that not all the Jubilee line stations have them.
Perhaps it could be for both reasons? The trains could be operated well before the screens were installed. It might be that LU engineers decided they are worth investing in, and the ultimate goal is to have them on all stations for either or both reasons, but due to budgetary constraints the process will take place gradually and over a few decades.
 
Do have this hobnob, Zimri :)

One in, one out, I'm afraid Bungle73
Wooooohoooooooooooooo, hobnobs :D I'm on a mission to lose some weight using the 220 stairs we have in and out of our tunnels at Liverpool Street, but I think i'm allowed this biscuit... :)

One issue they have with the oldest tunnels is that the clay around them has not only had the water table shift around, but has also been slowly baking in the waste heat of 100 years of train engines and brakes. As any potter will tell you, when clay bakes, it shrinks. This means that the tunnel linings can end up literally rattling around. They have to pump grout into the gaps to prevent it.
Thanks Crispy, this is another factor with the older tunnels. To be honest I don't know what the maintenance schedule is for the tunnels but I imagine you'd start to get some serious deflection in the old cast iron segments when this takes place so it might not be as difficult to spot as I first thought. I think i'm right in saying that the tube drivers are likely to report anything they spot whilst going through the network, including track that has suddenly become disjointed, with this information available we can use the engineering hours to fix the problem or at least provide a temporary fix to keep the trains running until we can get in there properly, perhaps on a weekend or something.

Top stuff. Thanks Zimri .
Not a problem, after being registered here for years and years I finally know what i'm talking about on a very, very small number of topics so thought it was about time to man up and join in rather than lurking on the sidelines. Check out the posts from Crispy as well, they seem to know what's going on :D
 
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Of course track safety on the underground and on the "big trains" would be helped if people did not climb down onto open and live tracks to pick up their life-precious dropped mobile phones....near misses far too often ..
 
Of course track safety on the underground and on the "big trains" would be helped if people did not climb down onto open and live tracks to pick up their life-precious dropped mobile phones....near misses far too often ..

Someone killed at Bank doing exactly that at the weekend :(
 
I got told (but happy to be proven wrong) that the majority of 'one unders' (I have no idea by what margin) actually survive (presumably with life changing injuries though).

If that's true then surely it needs to be publicised as it's probably the best deterrent against people doing it?
 
I got told (but happy to be proven wrong) that the majority of 'one unders' (I have no idea by what margin) actually survive (presumably with life changing injuries though).

If that's true then surely it needs to be publicised as it's probably the best deterrent against people doing it?

Regrettably - quite common - (best not to dwell on it for all concerned) ....precise figures are probably collated by the relevant Safety authorities Each one is a personal tragedy and a group tragedy for all parties....
 
I got told (but happy to be proven wrong) that the majority of 'one unders' (I have no idea by what margin) actually survive (presumably with life changing injuries though).

I briefly dated a trauma nurse at the Royal London who said much the same thing: a lot of 'one unders' survive, but the injuries are horrific. :(
 
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