London Student protests - Wed 8th Dec+ Thurs 9th

[Citizen66]

all your facebook friends seem to be tory nobheads. what's going on?

This has probably already been pointed out but I've got pages to read so sorry if it has.

But you don't have to be 'facebook friends' with folk in order to interact with and be called a terrorist/peadophile by them.

It's certainly to your credit that you may not know that.

 

[audiotech]

I wonder how many nice middle class parents are hearing this stuff from their kids?

“Now you’ve met the MET!”

 

[BigTom]

heh, just read 40 pages over an evening cos I missed all this whilst ill.
good on the students, both uni and schoolkids and especially to the workers who were out in solidarity.

Looking forward to March and to the Royal Wedding. Lots of building, local actions and hopefully somewhere a national action (on a weekend) between now and then.

I hope (and think) that the students don't stop now. I worry that many of them will feel like they fought and lost and that's it. I think that they are linked to the wider anti-cuts movements sufficiently that that won't happen - certainly the HE cuts and EMA scrapping, and to a lesser extent the ending of the Schools Sports Partnerships are still live issues and these are a part of the movement intrinsically from what I can see.

One of the people from brum was right at the front of the treasury occupation attempt - he and maybe 6 others went in through the doors once they were breached and then came running back out about 2 seconds later (police baton charging them inside), police formed a line at the door and held it despite attempts to break through using herras fencing and throwing bits of the concrete blocks. Then after a bit of time police moved in from the sides to retake the building completely.

 

[shaman75]

 

[ymu]

I don't think there's much chance of the student protests becoming about tuition fees and nothing else - they haven't focused on them exclusively, however much the media tries to ignore the EMA part, and every demo is just building more links.

Lots of schoolkids got kettled so late last night that they had to seek sanctuary with the London uni occupations before returning to their home cities today. That's the best possible way to forge links. Virtually all the students I've seen interviewed - including the random vox pops - have mentioned the cuts in general, the demo yesterday broke off to attack a UK uncut tax-dodging target, and various student groups are building for the UK uncut demos tomorrow.

And these protests are popular - even with people who can't bring themselves to get involved in a demo.

It's all looking very good indeed.

 

[Citizen66]

I only just remembered - didn't this all start because the protest deviated from the agreed route ?

I've been on two events in London over the years - most notably the Rock against Racism one in 1977 - I don't recall any problems at all.

And what of the police who were injured trying to prevent even more carnage. ?

Fuck off.

 

[shaman75]

crane your neck a bit

 

[PursuedByBears]

heh, just read 40 pages over an evening cos I missed all this whilst ill.
good on the students, both uni and schoolkids and especially to the workers who were out in solidarity.

Looking forward to March and to the Royal Wedding. Lots of building, local actions and hopefully somewhere a national action (on a weekend) between now and then.

I hope (and think) that the students don't stop now. I worry that many of them will feel like they fought and lost and that's it. I think that they are linked to the wider anti-cuts movements sufficiently that that won't happen - certainly the HE cuts and EMA scrapping, and to a lesser extent the ending of the Schools Sports Partnerships are still live issues and these are a part of the movement intrinsically from what I can see.

One of the people from brum was right at the front of the treasury occupation attempt - he and maybe 6 others went in through the doors once they were breached and then came running back out about 2 seconds later (police baton charging them inside), police formed a line at the door and held it despite attempts to break through using herras fencing and throwing bits of the concrete blocks. Then after a bit of time police moved in from the sides to retake the building completely.

Oh yes, the royal wedding has lots of possibilities. Hopefully these protests will continue, and build and build...

 

[Citizen66]

The fantastic thing is that the students are only the canaries.

Yep, the guinea pigs. The cuts haven't happened to the wider audience yet. And caps off to the students as they are they the examplers.

 

[detective-boy]

So dragging him along for fifteen feet is proportionate how? FFS all they needed to do was just push the bloody wheelchair, but hey, why do that when you can drag him along the ground.

The clue is in the first line of my post: "I haven't got the faintest idea what he was doing". I could have added, and do now, "... and I haven't got the faintest idea why the officers used the force that they did".

 

[bi0boy]

The clue is in the first line of my post: "I haven't got the faintest idea what he was doing". I could have added, and do now, "... and I haven't got the faintest idea why the officers used the force that they did".

But there's probably a good reason for it, isn't there...

 

[shaman75]

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/12/london_tuition_fee_protest.html

 

[William of Walworth]

Those boston.com pix are massively impressive aren't they?


Have had no time whatseover today to keep up with this thread, but fair fucks to the boston photographer, and to the editor for his pix too ...

Some pictures tell it all really don't they .....

 

[detective-boy]

Before engaging further on this thread and dissecting the intricacies of the law, would you like to express your support for the demonstrators yesterday, detective-boy?

I entirely support their right to protest lawfully. I believe that we, as a society, should tolerate some degree of unlawfulness (minor damage (especially to state buildings and property), pushing and shoving of police, hassling of public servants, obstruction of the highway, etc.) in the furtherance of protest.

I have some concern that they don't really understand what the proposed changes are and, thus, don't entirely support the protest itself. (They go on about how it should be "the rich" who are taxed to pay for their university education rather than what is being proposed ... seemingly ignoring the fact that the proposal is that "the rich" will be taxed to pay for their university education ... but only when / if they become "the rich" ...)

I personally am more concerned about the removal of EMA. Without it many 16-18 year olds simply will not be able to gain the qualifications necessary to get to university (or on to other types of training / apprenticeship which I think we should be pushing as an alternative to ubiquitous degree type education).

 

[Citizen66]

I entirely support their right to protest lawfully.

lol.

 

[DRINK?]

Aye, anarchy, rioting, civil disobedience, open warfare on the authorities...bring it on I say ! Let the country descend into madness & chaos, let the purple haired, jewellery faced, angst-ridden pseudo-goths have their days. Let them burn the trappings of modern society to ground, destroy organised government and the capitalist state. Then as they wander around in the post-euphoric ashes of their revolution ask one of the stupid cunts "What now ?"......

I'm all for picking up our "leaders" when they go wrong but it seems that at the moment all people want to do is smash shit up and then set fire to it. Great, get your frustrations out but for fucks sake at least have an alternative suggestion as to how things should be done. Otherwise you end up looking like a bunch of angry teenagers trying to look hard and get back at daddy for not buying you a pony.

 

[detective-boy]

If you want to complain to the IPCC, the same muppets that looked after the death of Ian Tomlinson the fire away they are "sometimes staff by ex police constables." according to the Wiki page.

By law the Commissioners cannot be ex-police / law enforcement (and aren't)

From the outset they insisted that their investigators were not ex-police. (This sadly has had the effect that they were shit investigators with no experience of reactive, police type investigation (which is required of them) and they are only just emerging from that having learned their experience by fucking up more than enough cases.

The plan was that their senior investigators were not to be ex-police either ... but fortunately someone realised that would be an unmitigated disaster and so they started off with ex-police senior investigators and even some seconded police senior investigators (I know, I trained them in part). They have now, to a large extent, developed their own senior investigators and their reliance on police and ex-police is diminishing.

It would have been great if the organisation could have been entirely non-ex-police and effective. Sadly that was simply not an option. You can teach technical skill. You cannot teach experience. And you cannot expect inexperienced investigators to effectively deal with a complex and serious investigation effectively.

 

[Citizen66]

I have some concern that they don't really understand what the proposed changes are and, thus, don't entirely support the protest itself.

Yeah. Thousands of people normally gather mid-week in central London and get kettled because they don't really understand why they're there. They just do it.

 

[Santino]

Aye, anarchy, rioting, civil disobedience, open warfare on the authorities...bring it on I say ! Let the country descend into madness & chaos, let the purple haired, jewellery faced, angst-ridden pseudo-goths have their days. Let them burn the trappings of modern society to ground, destroy organised government and the capitalist state. Then as they wander around in the post-euphoric ashes of their revolution ask one of the stupid cunts "What now ?"......

I'm all for picking up our "leaders" when they go wrong but it seems that at the moment all people want to do is smash shit up and then set fire to it. Great, get your frustrations out but for fucks sake at least have an alternative suggestion as to how things should be done. Otherwise you end up looking like a bunch of angry teenagers trying to look hard and get back at daddy for not buying you a pony.

Deep.

 

[detective-boy]

I thought he was dead and frooze himself on a hill in the Lake District becasue he cheated on his wife and some how that made him an icon among over Chief Boobies.

That was the Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police, Michael Todd.

And it was Snowden, not the Lake District.

And Brian is the gay one and doesn't have a wife, (so far as I know) ...

 

[detective-boy]

I'm implying that you invariably find ways to excuse police actions.
I'll go further. You're often an apologist for police actions.

Obviously being disabled also doesn't prevent one being stupid.

There is a difference between "finding an excuse for" and being an "apologist" for something and pointing out inconsistencies in allegations made, gaps in what is known and potential explanations for some of what has been observed.

I DO the latter. I DON'T do the former.

 

[shaman75]

Erm. Ok. 12m 20s in a lad who looks about 10, in school uniform is blocked from leaving.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xg26u6_student-demonstration-london-09-12-2010_news

 

[bi0boy]

By law the Commissioners cannot be ex-police / law enforcement (and aren't)

From the outset they insisted that their investigators were not ex-police. (This sadly has had the effect that they were shit investigators with no experience of reactive, police type investigation (which is required of them) and they are only just emerging from that having learned their experience by fucking up more than enough cases.

The plan was that their senior investigators were not to be ex-police either ... but fortunately someone realised that would be an unmitigated disaster and so they started off with ex-police senior investigators and even some seconded police senior investigators (I know, I trained them in part). They have now, to a large extent, developed their own senior investigators and their reliance on police and ex-police is diminishing.

It would have been great if the organisation could have been entirely non-ex-police and effective. Sadly that was simply not an option. You can teach technical skill. You cannot teach experience. And you cannot expect inexperienced investigators to effectively deal with a complex and serious investigation effectively.

There are plenty of non-police investigative professions. I would have thought corporate fraud investigators would be ideal for the IPCC.

 

[BigTom]

from http://andyhaden.wordpress.com/2010/12/11/anarchy-in-the-uk-as-university-fees-vote-is-passed/

 

[Citizen66]

Off to to bust a psychedelic squat party in disguise.

 

[albionism]

legend

 

[ymu]

I entirely support their right to protest lawfully. I believe that we, as a society, should tolerate some degree of unlawfulness (minor damage (especially to state buildings and property), pushing and shoving of police, hassling of public servants, obstruction of the highway, etc.) in the furtherance of protest.

I have some concern that they don't really understand what the proposed changes are and, thus, don't entirely support the protest itself. (They go on about how it should be "the rich" who are taxed to pay for their university education rather than what is being proposed ... seemingly ignoring the fact that the proposal is that "the rich" will be taxed to pay for their university education ... but only when / if they become "the rich" ...)

I personally am more concerned about the removal of EMA. Without it many 16-18 year olds simply will not be able to gain the qualifications necessary to get to university (or on to other types of training / apprenticeship which I think we should be pushing as an alternative to ubiquitous degree type education).

This is not true.

It would be true of a graduate tax - where the amount you pay is proportional to the financial rewards you gain - but it's not true of a loan which accrues interest over a 30 year period.

It's not when you become 'rich', it's when you start earning >£21k at 2015/16 income levels. That's equivalent to about £18k now, approx 80% of current UK median income.

The IFS estimate that around 50% of graduates will not have paid off the balance of their loans by the end of that 30 year period (48.7% for fees of £7,500, 54.8% for fees of £9,000).

The repayments will be 9% of income. That's equivalent to paying a second pension for 30 years, on a loan amount which will have approximately doubled due to the interest charged.

I think the government has just sold off the Student Loans Company, so that's an awful lot of interest that is being handed over to a private company - and an awful lot of government money being handed over to them in the 30 year write-offs.

It's a con. You might have fallen for it, but these kids ain't stupid.

 

[detective-boy]

Barnsley girl's account of violence at fees protest.

We were right at the front. There was a huge crowd behind us so we were pushed forward. There was nothing we could do about it. They [the police] saw us coming towards them, these teenage girls who wanted to go home. They didn't show any mercy whatsoever. They threw around my friends who were just 17 year old slim girls. They were beating my friends with batons. They didn't show any sympathy in their voice and I didn't see anything in their eyes.

That is an aspect of the control of crowds that the police still haven't got their heads around - there is some strength in an argument that when it starts to kick off and it becomes apparent that more robust police tactics are likely, if you voluntarily remain then you take the risk of being stuck in her situation ... but it doesn't explain all such situations by all means.

There is also some strength in the argument that in dealing with a crowd the police can only apply force to the bit of it they are in contact with ... but in relation to what that force is, it can be justified in terms of pushing, or pulling out of the crowd or whatever ... but I have very serious doubts it can be used to justify batoning which is now regularly seen, or aggressive use of shield edges.

This is an issue for police training and command but is also an issue for individual officers using individual force against individual demonstrators. Someone on Newsnight tonight asked "When did police baton charges become the norm?". The answer is "recently" and it is linked to the use of new-style (last 15 years) officer safety tactics in public order situations. They simply are not usually appropriate.

 

[IC3D]

Ah an early Jackson Bollock if I'm not mistaken.

 

[kenny g]

some familiar faces here!