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London Student protests - Wed 8th Dec+ Thurs 9th

ymu said:
We need to think about providing our own toilet facilities for the next kettle. I'm thinking a funnel and some balloons for easy disposal ... set up nice and close to the police lines, natch.
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I saw a bloke shit in the street in a kettle. Alas he didn't fling it at the ob.
 
Proper Tidy said:
So the answer to alleged falling education standards is to cut funding?
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Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development for the standards ..... labour and the tories use them.
Labours spent billions increasing eduction spending (sorry PFI... the bills will be arriving soon ) ..its an expensive way to keep the unemployed off the books

Why not turn the clock back ....and make it free to those with ability ....but just the few with the ability
 
ymu said:
We need to think about providing our own toilet facilities for the next kettle. I'm thinking a funnel and some balloons for easy disposal ... set up nice and close to the police lines, natch.
Click to expand...

Pringles contaners are very handy for that - for men or women!
 
Tankus said:
Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development for the standards ..... labour and the tories use them.
Labours spent billions increasing eduction spending (sorry PFI... the bills will be arriving soon ) ..its an expensive way to keep the unemployed off the books

Why not turn the clock back ....and make it free to those with ability ....but just the few with the ability
Click to expand...

quite agree - every portakabin has university status these days
 
Tankus said:
Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development for the standards ..... labour and the tories use them.
Labours spent billions increasing eduction spending (sorry PFI... the bills will be arriving soon ) ..its an expensive way to keep the unemployed off the books

Why not turn the clock back ....and make it free to those with ability ....but just the few with the ability
Click to expand...

How do you ascertain that ability? How would you prevent rich people sending their thick kids off to uni? Don't you see that it is just social apartheid? Wouldn't all the graduate jobs just go to upper middle/upper class kids? Why not just create more jobs, thus ending you pedicament?

You went to uni. You don't seem particularly bright. Why do you want to pull the ladder up behind you?
 
Tankus said:
Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development for the standards ..... labour and the tories use them.
Labours spent billions increasing eduction spending (sorry PFI... the bills will be arriving soon ) ..its an expensive way to keep the unemployed off the books

Why not turn the clock back ....and make it free to those with ability ....but just the few with the ability
Click to expand...

That wouldn't be turning the clock back. Turning the clock back would mean excluding huge numbers of people who could have made great use of higher education but were massively disadvantaged by the primary and secondary education system (as well as the admissions procedures of large sections of of the HE sector). There aren't any halcyon days to go back to; it's forward either towards rights based openess and inclusion or the market.

Louis MacNeice
 
littlebabyjesus said:
The police are an instrument of the state, teuchter. They are there to enforce the will of the state, by violent means as necessary – and some aspects of that enforcement will be seen as good by most people, other aspects less good. The police force exists above all else to maintain the current distribution of property and to maintain order. You change the nature of the police by changing the nature of the state and, crucially, by changing the nature of ownership. It makes no sense to discuss the one without reference to the other.
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Proper Tidy said:
You really want me to explain democracy to you? Fucking hell teuchter, you're better than this.

We have a state bureaucracy - under the guise of so-called liberal parliamentary democracy - that is not accountable, and the police are only semi-accountable to that bureaucracy. Were we to remove that bureaucracy and replace it with a system of social & economic order based on genuine democracy then immediately the police would become semi-accountable to the people. Add reforms to policing - to make local forces accountable to local people, not to a centralised police bureaucracy, and the jobs a good un. Of course some people would still resent the police - nobody likes getting caught - but we wouldn't see police attacking ordinary working people because it serves the interests of their paymasters or their paymasters' paymasters.
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Thanks for the lectures but you are both talking rather vaguely about some new order without being very specific about how it's going to come about and how it's going to work when it does.

Proper Tidy said:
For the people by the people isn't a difficult concept to understand.
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Easy concept, difficult to actually put into practice.


The point here is that the whole ACAB thing refuses to deal with the problem - it's lazy thinking as far as I'm concerned. Even if we accept that what it really means is "ACAB until we have brought about a new social and economic order", well, all it does is state that we need a new social and economic order without having to actually explain how that is going to appear and function. Meanwhile, it shuts out any discussion about how to improve the police force we have under our current system, and ignores the fact that many members of the police would probably agree that there are changes that should be made.

Additionally it's directed at individual police officers personally - what's this supposed to achieve? It's not those individual officers who decide to make the horse charge or whatever, it's those who command them, and indirectly, those institutions of the state that you want to get rid of. Likewise it's not really the individual officers who decide what level of police violence is "acceptable" when dealing with protests, even though it might be them that carry it out. Ok, so "just following orders" is by no means a justification for anything, but what is the point of directing anger at individual police officers (and I mean mainly in the context of sitting at home typing ACAB on the internet, not in the context of being face to face with them at a protest).

What's it supposed to achieve - make enough police officers uncomfortable enough about their role that they quit to be replaced with folk that have an even more mercenary attitude to their work? Demoralise those that genuinely want to do good stuff in those roles which are socially useful?



eta

Crispy is right, this should be on another thread though rather than disrupting this one.
 
belboid said:
Pringles contaners are very handy for that - for men or women!
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I'm not sure I could collect thousands of Pringles containers, let alone carry them to a demo, but balloons are small and cheap. Couple of people with sheets to provide a makeshift cubicle, and let the punters dispose of their mess in whatever way they see fit...

If the cops want to kettle people without providing any facilities ... they really should be the ones suffering the consequences.
 
teuchter said:
Thanks for the lectures but you are both talking rather vaguely about some new order without being very specific about how it's going to come about and how it's going to work when it does.



Easy concept, difficult to actually put into practice.


The point here is that the whole ACAB thing refuses to deal with the problem - it's lazy thinking as far as I'm concerned. Even if we accept that what it really means is "ACAB until we have brought about a new social and economic order", well, all it does is state that we need a new social and economic order without having to actually explain how that is going to appear and function. Meanwhile, it shuts out any discussion about how to improve the police force we have under our current system, and ignores the fact that many members of the police would probably agree that there are changes that should be made.

Additionally it's directed at individual police officers personally - what's this supposed to achieve? It's not those individual officers who decide to make the horse charge or whatever, it's those who command them, and indirectly, those institutions of the state that you want to get rid of. Likewise it's not really the individual officers who decide what level of police violence is "acceptable" when dealing with protests, even though it might be them that carry it out. Ok, so "just following orders" is by no means a justification for anything, but what is the point of directing anger at individual police officers (and I mean mainly in the context of sitting at home typing ACAB on the internet, not in the context of being face to face with them at a protest).

What's it supposed to achieve - make enough police officers uncomfortable enough about their role that they quit to be replaced with folk that have an even more mercenary attitude to their work? Demoralise those that genuinely want to do good stuff in those roles which are socially useful?



eta

Crispy is right, this should be on another thread though rather than disrupting this one.
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Just following orders is not a defence.
 
Tankus said:
this bit sorry....... quoting my shite
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I think you make some relevant points, but you ruined it by starting off with some tabloid, tap room bore nonsense about the miners' strike and the likes of Prescott and Kinnock being former revolutionaries. At least try and be original.

The thing is that higher education has indeed become, to a large extent, a social parking scheme for kids who'd otherwise be on the dole. But that's the key to understanding what's going on-what else is there for these kids? They've been sold the idea that you're nothing without a degree (increasingly losing prestige for all but the products of the top universities), conned into starting working life with a millstone round their necks in the form of a debt that most of them will take decades to pay off (well-paid jobs are disappearing fast)-and are now having thousands more in debt piled upon them. It would be different if there were an alternative in the form of an abundence of well-paid (eventually) careers or hundreds of thousands of apprenticeships etc, but there aren't and there won't be. So what then?

I admit to being pleasantly surprised by the level of militancy being shown.
 
chilango said:
God you're boring.

Get an arguement or you're on "ignore". Cobbles too.

GG and moon are different, they're wrong, but at least they mean it.
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It was the Labour government's way of stopping too many go straight to the dole queue. Ive always thought university education should be free but not to those not talented enough or at laughbable establishments.

I couldnt care less whether you ignore me or not.
 
Proper Tidy said:
How do you ascertain that ability? How would you prevent rich people sending their thick kids off to uni? Don't you see that it is just social apartheid? Wouldn't all the graduate jobs just go to upper middle/upper class kids? Why not just create more jobs, thus ending you pedicament?

You went to uni. You don't seem particularly bright. Why do you want to pull the ladder up behind you?
Click to expand...
10-12-2010 13:52 #1152
Tankus
If I had an answer I would go back to the 70's starting with O's and A's .........
vairable pass level based on percentages ...the bottom 40% of would fail (C-) only the very top level..... 5%would achieve an A
reduce student numbers to 100,000 (from 450,000) and make it free ...... Bite the bullet on the unemployed they exist anyway ...the numbers are just hidden from view
Double the price for foreign students .....
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10-12-2010 14:45 #1209 Proper Tidy
"Why not just create more jobs, thus ending your predicament?"
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what happens if you cant , to the extent you need ? ...We will still be paying the last decade's debits until 2050 and possibly beyond
 
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