Life after the SWP?

[Fisher_Gate]

The movement dictates how radical your actions can/should be. The Party shouldn't be committing anything vastly more outrageous than that which the general public at large would see as legitimate and/or partake in themselves. Ideally, it's all them and we're just agitating it.

And with that sweeping statement the whole question of leadership is bypassed ... no wonder you are not Trots any more - try reading this and gain an education http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/tp/index.htm

 

[Fisher_Gate]

...
you only know what you read in their press releases don't you?...

No. Respect are doing good work in Manchester - I've seen it.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

*yawn*

Ironic that someone who couches all their criticisms of me in terms of my brash, youthful arrogance is so anally immature himself.

Do you actually think that I was just writing guff for the sake of seeing my post stuck up on the wall, or is there not the slight possibility that I was using Straw as an example of someone who has, in his time, been involved in 'more radical acts' than the SWP has the contemporary political climate in order to dismiss the argument that 'doing radical stuff' is what makes you politically hardcore?

You're a political anus.

It's not your youth that's the problem. It's the fact that you haven't had a proper political education because you've only ever been in the SWP - an organisation that is 'selective' about history to say the least.

I was often a critic of the Militant's politics in their heyday in the 1980s, but to give credit where credit's due, on average their youthful members, often younger than you, knew a fuck of a lot more about labour movement history and politics than most SWP members gained in a lifetime.

 

[Bakunin]

The SWP, along with others, mobilised a million plus people on the streets of London. That is doing some. It then took the radical decision to try and drag the knumbskulls of the far left out of their political ghetto. Then the SWP have a radical thought to assist in building a political left alternative to Labour.

What do fruitbats like you do? Have a camping holiday and a ruck with the police. Very wadical.

Getting defensive are we?

I don't want to rain on your parade at all, but I was on those useless A to B marches that had ever decreasing numbers as well as being involved in direct action against both Afghanistan and Iraq. I didn't find the marches, as repetitive and tedious as they were (schlepping up from Plymouth and back for marches with an ever smaller number of people wasn't a great strategy, from my point of view) nearly as empowering or as effective as the direct actions I was involved with.

And setting up (yet another) party to go down the failed electoral route, while simultaneously saying there's 'no Parliamentary road' is hardly a radical step forward by anyone's standards.

Compare the policing of the Climate Camp and other direct action camps and gatherings with that of your normal march. They did their best to give us as much trouble as possible and still do. Why do you think they do that while largely leaving the Swappies alone? It's because the Swappies are no real threat and they know it, while direct action groups present at the very least a potential threat when we aren't presenting an actual one. And the Climate Camp was hardly a 'camping holiday' as anyone who actually got up off their arse and went will tell you. And we didn't 'ruck with the police' either, we simply kept them off the site with the minimum of problems and still managed to enter Kingsnorth, despite their having over 1400 plod from 26 counties and a six million pound budget in place to stop us. And ask yourself why they expended that kind of cash and manpower in the first place if they didn't consider us a real problem for them.

 

[Bakunin]

The movement dictates how radical your actions can/should be. The Party shouldn't be committing anything vastly more outrageous than that which the general public at large would see as legitimate and/or partake in themselves. Ideally, it's all them and we're just agitating it.

Agitating what exactly. I used to be in your party, and I didn't see much agitation then and even less now. It's one of the reasons I was so happy to leave the SWP and now work in direct action groups because they are the ones who seem to be doing the bulk of the agitating these days.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I was often a critic of the Militant's politics in their heyday in the 1980s, but to give credit where credit's due, on average their youthful members, often younger than you, knew a fuck of a lot more about labour movement history and politics than most SWP members gained in a lifetime.

Rubbish. When we attended Millie summer camps in the 80's we had two or three cadre following each of us around to make sure we didn't 'corrupt' their members. The average member was so protected from broader marxist arguments and debates it was unbelievable.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Rubbish. When we attended Millie summer camps in the 80's we had two or three cadre following each of us around to make sure we didn't 'corrupt' their members. The average member was so protected from broader marxist arguments and debates it was unbelievable.

Inculcated about alternative marxist argument - yes, I agree with you to an extent. But I was talking about labour movement history and politics, which they learnt a lot about, particularly in the LPYS.

 

[Fedayn]

The average member was so protected from broader marxist arguments and debates it was unbelievable.

What utter utter bollocks, 'protected from broader marxist arguments' what were you doing there then? Do you really think that anyone needed protecting from yourselves? 10/10 for self-delusion.

 

[Das Uberdog]

And with that sweeping statement the whole question of leadership is bypassed ... no wonder you are not Trots any more - try reading this and gain an education http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/tp/index.htm

How is the whole question of leadership bypassed?

What you say doesn't actually follow on logically from the argument - you're just trying to intimidate me with your presumptions about the depth of my reading.

Don't try it, I've read my Trotsky, probably more recently than you.

So fuck off.

 

[Random]

The SWP, along with others, mobilised a million plus people on the streets of London. That is doing some. It then took the radical decision to try and drag the knumbskulls of the far left out of their political ghetto. Then the SWP have a radical thought to assist in building a political left alternative to Labour.

Is that it? Is that whaty we're going to get from you lot of soon to be ex-members of the SWP? 'We tried but workers failed to respond'?

Fair play the SWP were some of the most active people in STWC. And that movement was squandered. But don't expect any investigation of how or why. 'We tried but objective circumstances were too much for us guv'.

 

[liampreston]

Is that it? Is that whaty we're going to get from you lot of soon to be ex-members of the SWP? 'We tried but workers failed to respond'?

Fair play the SWP were some of the most active people in STWC. And that movement was squandered. But don't expect any investigation of how or why. 'We tried but objective circumstances were too much for us guv'.

To be honest, the SWP didn't know what to do once it had the marches and what-not as publicity material. "Look, we've achieved something special and now...er...want to sell papers, anyone?" was the message I got.

I can see the SWP turning into a pressure group next year, with supporters who want to play a role in electoral politics (something I think many in the party didn't really have the ability to understand fully) joining Labour, or even heck the existing socialist parties (-Alternative, -Labour, -whoever). I think the current role call of failed SWP vehicles shows that being a non-electoral body is probably where the remaining members are best suited.

But if Respect are no longer a national group (and let's face it, they're not), and the SWP are no longer going to run with the Left List, that kinda leaves just Scotland with socialist parties who run electorally on a national basis (and even here we see the dangers of splits and strife).

 

[audiotech]

Is that it? Is that whaty we're going to get from you lot of soon to be ex-members of the SWP? 'We tried but workers failed to respond'?

Fair play the SWP were some of the most active people in STWC. And that movement was squandered. But don't expect any investigation of how or why. 'We tried but objective circumstances were too much for us guv'.

The term 'you lot' doesn't have any meaning to someone who left the SWP in 1990.

I never said that the working class 'failed to respond'. Some got involved in anti-war groups, many marched, but generally I do recognise that working class activity has been at a low ebb for many years now.

It was decided there was a way that the anti-war movement could go and there are some still following that route. I believe they will fail, but I would like to see them not.

 

[Random]

It was decided there was a way that the anti-war movement could go and there are some still following that route. I believe they will fail, but I would like to see them not.

i see you've taken the john major route of covering up shocking truths with blandness

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Inculcated about alternative marxist argument - yes, I agree with you to an extent. But I was talking about labour movement history and politics, which they learnt a lot about, particularly in the LPYS.

Labour with a capital L yes but not the broader working class movement. After all for them Labour was the working class.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Do you really think that anyone needed protecting from yourselves?

The fucking Millie full timers did.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Labour with a capital L yes but not the broader working class movement. After all for them Labour was the working class.

I don't think we disagree that much on this point - they'd have certainly known more about (say) the Chartists, the Paris Commune and the role of the CP in the General Strike than our resident SWP 'history experts', but yes they did see the 20th Century through the prism of reformism and labourism.

 

[Das Uberdog]

You're such a sad old man!

I was going to 'lol', but now I'm just unhappy

Poor Fishy_Gate...

 

[Nigel Irritable]

When we attended Millie summer camps in the 80's we had two or three cadre following each of us around to make sure we didn't 'corrupt' their members.

Strange you should mention that. A few years back I went to a march with a mate of mine, who happened to be a new member of the SWP. We were standing there, both hungover, and chatting about what pub we were going to later when an SWP fulltimer approached us and carefully guided her away from the evil sectarian. Much to my amusement. And her embarrassment.

My point here is not that this is normal behaviour in the SWP, although I've seen it more than few times at this stage, and more to point out that you'll get an occasional bit of that sort of crap anywhere on the left from time to time. I can also tell you that when the SWP, a couple of years after that incident, sent one solitary member, a fulltimer who was not by any standard a youth, along to a Socialist Youth residential summer camp we went out of our way to be nice to the poor bastard.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

You're such a sad old man!

I was going to 'lol', but now I'm just unhappy

Poor Fishy_Gate...

You should be more unhappy about the stuff in the pre-conference IBs than anything I am saying. These are your own 'sad old man' members saying what a fuck up you've made of it after all.

PS I was born in the same year as John Rees so I don't know who's the older, but I know who is the sadder at the moment , I'm a lot younger than most of the leading contributors to the IB.

 

[chilango]

You should be more unhappy about the stuff in the pre-conference IBs than anything I am saying. These are your own 'sad old man' members saying what a fuck up you've made of it after all.

This is very true, and something our SWPs have been keen to avoid dealing with.

So DU, what do you think the future holds fro the SWP, and who/what is going to fill the vacuum?

...and FG, I'd like to hear some more on how come your so optimistic about RR? Really will they become a viable Left alternative (sic), and the new Rev Org? How will that add anything to the mix that isn-t already there?

 

[Fisher_Gate]

This is very true, and something our SWPs have been keen to avoid dealing with.

So DU, what do you think the future holds fro the SWP, and who/what is going to fill the vacuum?

...and FG, I'd like to hear some more on how come your so optimistic about RR? Really will they become a viable Left alternative (sic), and the new Rev Org? How will that add anything to the mix that isn-t already there?

Respect is the first step on creating a broader left wing alternative to Labour. No-one thinks it is the finished product but it has begun to assemble some of the important forces and new leaders like Salma Yaqoob.

Likewise the new revolutionary organisation is the first step on creating a serious non-sectarian revolutionary organisation compared to the domination by sects for too long - each with a guru: Cliff, Grant, Healy. I seriously believe that the space will emerge over the next five years for such developments and the people coming together to attempt it are of good calibre. Certainly we need them. I don't rule out a significant section if not the whole of the SWP, or the SP for that matter, playing a role in future positive developments, but I think in the short term it is unlikely the SWP will develop at all but will wither internally into a distinctly propagandistic group based around students.

 

[chilango]

Respect is the first step on creating a broader left wing alternative to Labour. No-one thinks it is the finished product but it has begun to assemble some of the important forces and new leaders like Salma Yaqoob.

Likewise the new revolutionary organisation is the first step on creating a serious non-sectarian revolutionary organisation compared to the domination by sects for too long - each with a guru: Cliff, Grant, Healy. I seriously believe that the space will emerge over the next five years for such developments and the people coming together to attempt it are of good calibre. Certainly we need them. I don't rule out a significant section if not the whole of the SWP, or the SP for that matter, playing a role in future positive developments, but I think in the short term it is unlikely the SWP will develop at all but will wither internally into a distinctly propagandistic group based around students.

Thanks FG.

Naturally, I don't share your prognosis, but at least you've answered my question!

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Thanks FG.

Naturally, I don't share your prognosis, but at least you've answered my question!

I am hopeful that some of the success of the approach of the LCR in France may rub off on the British Left, particularly its non-sectarian approach and willingness to encourage very dynamic internal debate and a multitude of views.

 

[Zachor]

The goods news is the SWP is dying and dying badly. Internal documents and dicussions have been released leaked that say that there is a faction of the swaps who have admitted that it was a mistake to build links with right wing Islamists.

I've never heard a swappie apologise for anything (such as their piss poor anti racist work) but it was a pleasure to hear a sort of apology for building links with Islamofash.

The quicker the swaps die off the better.

 

[chilango]

I think you're being over optmistic. None of the other trends of French radicalism have rubbed off on the Brits. Strikes, the movements of 1994, 1996, 2003, Bove, etc etc haven't crossed the channel I see no reason for the LCR to do so, I'd also tenatively suggest that all the LCR etc have managed to do is fill the gap left by the PCF and the PS more efficiently. I don't think they're necessarily opening up new ground for left, but there is perhaps something to be said for at least digging in a little. Maybe.

 

[chilango]

..and of course this raises the question of the difference (or if there is a difference) between the political culture in Europe and in the UK). Having lived in both, I'd say there most definately is.

 

[liampreston]

I think the constantly failing number of left and leftist electoral groups show the difference quite starkly, Chilango. It has to be noted too that electoral success for the far-right in working class areas seems far more obvious than success for the far-left.

How much the SWP/Respect experiment has helped to improve the standing and credibility of the far-left in an electoral context is open to question. The anti-war marches show there is a will to protest when there is an organisation behind it...but it seems moving protest into something else, something more, that next step from the slogans and the banners, is not quite perfected.

As I said before, the SWP will probably downgrade now into a pressure group, with members going off to other parties, if they go off to electoral politics at all...

 

[Zachor]

How much the SWP/Respect experiment has helped to improve the standing and credibility of the far-left in an electoral context is open to question. .

From my observation point it decreased the dwindling credibility of the far left especially in working class areas and in some cases actually gave succor to the nationalist fascists partially because of their open alliance with Islamofash and a perception that the left is part of the problems of this country and not the solution.

Maybe the death of the SWP and the other Trot and Communist groups could be a future bonus and we may be able to have some form of more communal cooperative politics but without the dangerous and deadly doctrine of Marx behind it.

 

[belboid]

I don't think we disagree that much on this point - they'd have certainly known more about (say) the Chartists, the Paris Commune and the role of the CP in the General Strike than our resident SWP 'history experts', but yes they did see the 20th Century through the prism of reformism and labourism.

a dog of the street would no more about those things than DU, but he's hardly a fair example. My experience completely contradicts yours, most Militant supporters I knew in the mid-eighties would have known far less about any of the things you mention than most SWP members. In the 'downturn' history and theory were more important than activity for the SWP.

 

[belboid]

I think you're being over optmistic. None of the other trends of French radicalism have rubbed off on the Brits. Strikes, the movements of 1994, 1996, 2003, Bove, etc etc haven't crossed the channel I see no reason for the LCR to do so, I'd also tenatively suggest that all the LCR etc have managed to do is fill the gap left by the PCF and the PS more efficiently. I don't think they're necessarily opening up new ground for left, but there is perhaps something to be said for at least digging in a little. Maybe.

the LCR haven't even done that particularly well. In electoral terms they are still nowhere, membership rose for a while but has now fallen back again (according to a couple of reports I've read), and, as you say, the situations in the two countries are very different indeed. And its 'non-sectarian attitude' is highly debated by many as well.