northernhord
Active Member
The SWP are unlikely to survive, they are the only people not to have noticed that people dont like their rigidity and authoritarian elitism.
Life after the SWP?
- Thread starter chilango
- Start date
They're not bitter are they?
Maybe they will get a beer named after them in a couple of hundred years
Maybe they will get a beer named after them in a couple of hundred years
liampreston
Spend time, not money
A thread about the future already descends into bickering about the past.
*shrugs*
So what will happen next then folks?
In an electoral context, in June 09 some European Parliament regions will have a Respect list but not all. I can't begin to imagine what regions these will be. The County Council elections on the same day will have the same smattering of left and leftist candidates, maybe under Respect/Left List/Socialist Labour labels but who knows...
Between now and the next General Election, attempts will be made to create another alliance of socialist parties to alongside the current crop of alphabet soup, which may work well for a bit (a la Socialist Alliance) or not at all (a la Social...oh never mind)
London, West Mids, North West and Yorks I'd have thought. Think they might try and organise a non-aggression pact with the Greens again?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No there won't. I think attempt sta forming nationwide orgs of one type or another are dead for the next few years. Until after the GE for sure.
liampreston
Spend time, not money
Really? That sound as realistic as it does pessimistic, butchers.
liampreston
Spend time, not money
Not sure about the North West, I thought (from soundings on other boards) that there is no chance of a Respect List in the NW region next year. The body which existed upto the "great divide" has withered away somewhat since...More realistic is supporting the Greens, as you suggest, the non-aggression pact would be more beneficial in a region where once there was bounty...
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
Wow, defending the radicalism of the SWP are we? Are you denying that he was involved in 'radical actions'? He came to the fore of his student political career in 1968 for fricks sake...
The point I was making, quite obviously, was that claiming individual 'radical actions' in opposition to the Swappies percieved inability to 'do radical stuff' is a moronic method of measuring their 'seriousness'. It was a direct response to Bakunin's (non) point.
As for jibes against the Chartists - I have no qualms with their historical role as one of the first gasps of the class struggle. But they weren't fucking revolutionaries, not in a socialist sense anyway. At best, radical democrats.
How about you all go back and learn to read, then you can read my posts in context?
kthxbai
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
London & West Mids deffo, I doubt the other two. There is a Respect branch in Manchester, so NW is plausible, tho they have nothing anywhere other than Mancs, and they simply do not exist anywhere in Yorks, afaik, so that seems incredibly unlikely.
you sure you're not confusing them with the BNP?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
how about you go back and actually read some history, then you wouldn't come out with the kind of bullshit you do on this thread (amongst many many others)
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Your points seem to be that, although other groups may have done more radical activity than the SWP, the SWP is more theoretically radical then them. So that's all right then. I seem to remember this as being the usual SWP excuse for all of the other liberal stuff they've done over the years as well.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
lolz@ it thinks it knows more history than i
Edit:
And to Random - I'm not here to defend the policies of the SWP - I'm here to give anarchoids crap for their romantic and blatantly a-historical beliefs in olde worlde social movements, as though they're something to 'recreate' (verbatum) for the future.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
dont be daft, no one could know more history than someone like you, with your third class honours degree from a former poly
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Das Uberdog: Any comments on what you're gonna do now the SWP is finished?
...or are you gonna be the last member standing (and remaining disciplined?) y'know like one of those Japanese WW2 soldiers stranded on a Pacific Island?
In all seriousness, as someone who has vigorously defended your Party here in the past, are you willing to comment on what is happening, and the next step?
...or are you gonna be the last member standing (and remaining disciplined?) y'know like one of those Japanese WW2 soldiers stranded on a Pacific Island?
In all seriousness, as someone who has vigorously defended your Party here in the past, are you willing to comment on what is happening, and the next step?
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
never one to shirk the easy jobs it seems
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
but its nothing like dead. Rees was never that popular, his loss will be meaningless. German may go, but wouldn't make much difference. Nineham? Who cares? Bamberry? going nowhere.
the remaining members will see this as a resurgence in genuine democratic debate, 'just like the bolsheviks used to have' which 'proves' the brilliance centrality and supremacy of the party.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Superb stuff!. You've not dissappointed me.
(you know what? when I first read it, I DID think it was a DU reply...heh)
yeah, I forgot that Lavalette in preston was SWP, and I think that the Greens would decline any sort of pact like they did last time
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
There's even less of a reason to enter into a pact now.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
It looks a bit like that too is on its last legs, though less dramatically.
I'm sure FG will be along in a bit to rally to its cause though.
liampreston
Spend time, not money
Lavalette is currently an "Independent Socialist" on the council website, but I think there's been threads on this before so I won't try and revisit old arguments...
As for the Greens in Preston, very, very poor results in the council wards they have stood in over the years, and in many cases in direct opposition to Respect. I got the impression of there being no pact at a local level between the two...
The County Council elections next year may bring something, I dunno...
was just thinking that, any non-agression treaty is going to involve the Greens standing in London, given that we're defending a seat that is vulnerable due to a reduction in the number of seats, and I really don't think Respect have a snowballs chance in hell anywhere else, even though they managed to get beaten by the BNP, Christian Alliance and Abolish the Congestion Charge Party
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Yeah, would figure.
Pretty certain that the Left List (SWP's Respect) won't stand anywhere, the other Respect will probably stand in London, Birmingham, but who knows?
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
There's no point in talking about a new socialist party when there is no significant socialist organising in poor communities and the unions are so compromised and gutless. Even if a new party did emerge it would be a mockery of a party (like the SWP) because it has no decent grassroots movement to back it up.
I reckon that London Citizens - a bunch of largely religious and middle class types - have done more organising for poorer people in London than any socialist organisation recently. I'm not endorsing them btw - don't really know what I think of them - but if people like that are organising better than socialists then there ain't much hope for socialism in the near future.
I'm not trying to be needlessly negative - just saying that you need to look at the political scene as it exists rather than through the rose-tinted spectacles of wishful thinking.
I reckon that London Citizens - a bunch of largely religious and middle class types - have done more organising for poorer people in London than any socialist organisation recently. I'm not endorsing them btw - don't really know what I think of them - but if people like that are organising better than socialists then there ain't much hope for socialism in the near future.
I'm not trying to be needlessly negative - just saying that you need to look at the political scene as it exists rather than through the rose-tinted spectacles of wishful thinking.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Quite.
Socialist, communist, Anarchist ideas may very well be right, but the methods simply aren't working.
The SWP is merely the most strident example of this.
So, I ask again, what next?
Left Alternative have said they will not stand anywhere until after the next general election, perhaps in 2010. Respect Renewal will fight about 5 seats nationwide in the general election. Looks like no euro candidates for any left group in England in 2009- maybe a few random county council seats her and there but that is it.
Apparently, there is no political space before then for Socialism in England or something
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Moron.
Why don't you learn to read yourself .... and go back and check your original post. http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8486771&postcount=7
Since when was 1968 "in the 70s" FFS?
If you knew anything at all about student politics and history then you would know that Straw became NUS president as the candidate of the "Radical Students Alliance" actually in 1969 and proceeded to dampen down the radicalism of student protest on day one he came to power. He was involved in a couple of student protests in 1966-68 but once he got elected to a student union presidency he did fuck all. The most radical thing he did after 1968 was to sign his nomination paper to have the word "Radical" on his manifesto. Straw was a councillor, barrister and Labour loyalist throughout the 1970s and slavishly followed the right wing labour line.
Gordon Brown actually has a better record as a "Radical" "in the 70s" and Neil Kinnock was practically a revolutionary then by today's standards; even Shirley Williams went on a picket line (Grunwick) - but Straw in the 1970s, no way did he do anything radical.
The predecessor to the SWP at the time by the way was supporting keeping the troops in the north of Ireland and calling for 'left wing unity' on a four point platform that some then Labour MPs said they would be comfortable with.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
I've always thought the essence of socialism is extreme democracy - that democracy and control should be extended to every sphere of life.
The socialist movement was still in its infancy during the heyday of the Chartists, so you have a point. The working class was also in its infancy. But I would argue that there was a small minority of the Chartist movement who were revolutionary, indeed in the English Civil War there were also groups who made revolutionary demands ahead of their time, in a way, given the balance of forces and economic development of their societies, that had elements of utopia, but the revolutionary spirit should be recognised.
When John Lee Hooker was asked when the blues began he said, "in the garden of eden - one man, one woman & a broken home"
I guess we can say similar of the revolutionary movement.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
No it wasn't. If the only way you can attempt to respond to a moron like DU's bullshit is to come out with such fiction yourself, I'd stay out of it.
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