Life after the SWP?

[belboid]

I've always thought the essence of socialism is extreme democracy

Marx & Engels were, as I'm sure you know, oft called the 'extreme democrats' by their opponents in Germany, at least up until the time of the Communist Manifesto.

No doubt DU would slag them off for being liberals as well.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Marx and Engels never recognised the need for a Leninist Party I think would be DUs critique.

On the subject of the political evolution of Gordon Brown, John Newsinger wrote an excellent article (in my opinion): http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=334&issue=115, oddly I first read it in VARIANT a magazine linked with the arts council that seems to have the odd SWPer writing articles in it.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

No it wasn't. If the only way you can attempt to respond to a moron like DU's bullshit is to come out with such fiction yourself, I'd stay out of it.

April 1969 - Straw elected president of NUS. August 1969 - Socialist Worker declines to call for troops out of Northern Ireland.

 

[belboid]

August 1969 - Socialist Worker declines to call for troops out of Northern Ireland.

Which is not the same thing as supporting troops being in NI, you squalid little lair.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

It looks a bit like that too is on its last legs, though less dramatically.

I'm sure FG will be along in a bit to rally to its cause though.

Respect maintained its vote proportion in a recent by-election in Tower Hamlets at around 24%, won a council seat in Birmingham in May with several other good performances in Birmingham, and had a good vote in City and East GLA constituency in the London elections. Some other results have been more disappointing, but given what has happened to the organisation following the SWP's disruption, they are nowhere near the meltdown that 'Left List'/SWP suffered.

Some of the ex-SWP members in Respect are involved in a discussion to create a new revolutionary organisation with the ISG and Socialist Resistance.

 

[belboid]

will you admit they wont stand anywhere other than E London & West Mids FG? Admit that they are not a genuinely national organisation?

 

[treelover]

There's no point in talking about a new socialist party when there is no significant socialist organising in poor communities and the unions are so compromised and gutless. Even if a new party did emerge it would be a mockery of a party (like the SWP) because it has no decent grassroots movement to back it up.

Agreed, while left groups in Europe like The Left party and the Dutch Socialist party are doing incredibly well, here we have the Far Right making the running.


btw, both the the Left Party and the DSP support immigration controls, etc and certainly don't endorse Open borders, a big factor in their success?

 

[chilango]

Respect maintained its vote proportion in a recent by-election in Tower Hamlets at around 24%, won a council seat in Birmingham in May with several other good performances in Birmingham, and had a good vote in City and East GLA constituency in the London elections. Some other results have been more disappointing, but given what has happened to the organisation following the SWP's disruption, they are nowhere near the meltdown that 'Left List'/SWP suffered.

Some of the ex-SWP members in Respect are involved in a discussion to create a new revolutionary organisation with the ISG and Socialist Resistance.

Y'see.

Urban never leaves me unfulfilled.



Do you honestly think RR will survive post GE?

Or are your "real" hopes on whatever comes out the new Rev Org you mention?

Or both?

 

[chilango]

Agreed, while left groups in Europe like The Left party and the Dutch Socialist party are doing incredibly well, here we have the Far Right making the running.


btw, both the the Left Party and the DSP support immigration controls, etc and certainly don't endorse Open borders, a big factor in their success?

No.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Which is not the same thing as supporting troops being in NI, you squalid little lair.

The leadership of IS voted 9 votes to 3 to drop the "British Troops Out" slogan on 17th August 1969 having previously carried it for a year. The coverage of SW on 21 August included an article with the following positions:

"Because the troops do not have the same ingrained hatreds of the RUC and B Specials, they will not behave with the same viciousness..."

"The deployment of British troops in Ulster (sic) provides some sort of security against lawlessness of the RUC and B Specials."

 

[Udo Erasmus]

I find the French New Anti-Capitalist Party far more exciting than Die Linke

http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article1492

To push things in this direction, it is necessary to regroup our forces in a party which does not give up anything, which does not abandon anyone. It is not possible to unite in the same party those who want to finish with capitalism and those who put up with it. It is not possible to have in the same government those who defend the rights of the workers and those who defend the power of shareholders, those who want to break with liberal policies and those who put them into practice, those who want to build a Europe of the workers and the most dedicated artisans of a Europe of free competition and profit. That is why we want a party completely independent of the Socialist Party, a party which defends to the end the interests of all the exploited.

We call on you to build, all together, a Left which does not give up, a fighting, anti-capitalist, internationalist, anti-racist, ecologist, feminist Left, a Left that is revolted by all forms of discrimination. To change the world, we need a party which fights to the end against the system, for the revolutionary transformation of society. The Left that we want must be organized on an international, and in particular European, scale. It must be present in elections, without ever forgetting that it is the social, cultural and ecological mobilizations that will impose change.

Bearing in mind past experiences, we will work out together, by taking the time to discuss, a new democratic socialist perspective for the 21st century. We do not have a model, especially not the regimes of the last century that claimed to be “communist”, but we have objectives. To put an end to the dictatorship that capital imposes on the economy and the entire society, to build the broadest democracy that humanity has ever known, where the “invisible hand of the market” will be replaced by collective decisions. There are more and more of us who want to meet this challenge. Individuals, groups of activists, revolutionary political currents, libertarians, communists, socialists, ecologists, anti-liberals, let us keep on uniting! … In their village, their neighbourhood, their workplace, their place of study, each and every one can and must bring, at their own speed, their contribution to the building of this pluralist and democratic instrument. Success is within our grasp.

 

[belboid]

my god, you have the docs set up on your computer - you sad, sad bastard.

And neither of those comments equate with supporting the troops being in there, so you ARE a squalid little liar.

 

[belboid]

btw, both the the Left Party and the DSP support immigration controls, etc and certainly don't endorse Open borders, a big factor in their success?

Neither did Respect, you thick cunt, so a very clear and obvious 'no'.

 

[chilango]

my god, you have the docs set up on your computer - you sad, sad bastard..

To be fair to FG it comes up here every few montsh, I can see why it would be handy to have the quotes to hand...

 

[Fisher_Gate]

will you admit they wont stand anywhere other than E London & West Mids FG? Admit that they are not a genuinely national organisation?

Manchester is very likely to have a Respect candidate. That's three of the biggest cities in England covered.

Resources will be heavily focussed on winnable seats.

No other left wing organisation has that choice to make because none of them are in with the slightest chance of winning anything.

In 2007 the SWP focussed almost all their effort on one tiny district council seat in Preston, declining to even stand in Liverpool 40 miles away, and even opposed doing canvassing in the neighbouring ward, in case it detracted from that effort. The SWP, SP etc have already declared that they are not standing in the Euro elections in 2009. Respect will be considering its position in January but it is possible it may stand in several places.

 

[treelover]

The French one just sounds like a lot of typical left platitudes and pie in the sky, where's the beef?

 

[Das Uberdog]

If Fisher_Gate could read it would see that my entire point is that Jack Straw was no radical, though he was involved in 'radical actions'.

But actually trying to understand what I'm saying isn't really the prerogative I s'pose.

PS - belboid - confused about the third-class former poly comment?

 

[Idris2002]

Interesting comment on Madam Miaow's blog. Might as well post it here as on any other thread:

you would think that, but a LOT of the Left either seem to live in a bubble, are treated like un-thinking ants or have become so de-politicised that they can't ponder why so many of the British Left's endevours end in failure

many of the problem facing the Left are similar to any organisation, decide what you're trying to put over, use various methods to reach your target audience (I hope you like the PR speak!), expand, build up structures and increase influence in chosen areas, etc

but without a degree of reflection and the willingness to listen and think, nothing comes of all these negative experiences as another generation of socialists are shoved thru the mill, until the next Fresher's Faire

you'll notice one aspect of that bubble existence, how posters at SU blog are unfamiliar with the idea of ENGAGING with the point's of others, rather they descend into slanging matches, even over simple things

until those poor habits are un-learnt not much will change, and the REAL danger of the BNP growing won't diminish

 

[Fisher_Gate]

my god, you have the docs set up on your computer - you sad, sad bastard.

And neither of those comments equate with supporting the troops being in there, so you ARE a squalid little liar.

Deliberately NOT calling for the troops to get out means you are in favour of them staying in.

And this has been a bone of contention on the left for nearly 40 years. Even the Milipedes and Matgamna-ites had a better position than the dreadful IS.

Don't get me started on the Common Market debate by the way!

 

[Fisher_Gate]

If Fisher_Gate could read it would see that my entire point is that Jack Straw was no radical, though he was involved in 'radical actions'.

But actually trying to understand what I'm saying isn't really the prerogative I s'pose.

PS - belboid - confused about the third-class former poly comment?

And if you read my entire point you would see I was telling you Straw was not involved in any 'radical actions' after 1968.

Plenty of other right wing labour MPs were involved in 'radical actions' 'in the 70s', but it just shows your stupidity and lack of knowledge of Labour Party history that you picked on the one who wasn't to try to prove your point.

 

[chilango]

Interesting comment on Madam Miaow's blog. Might as well post it here as on any other thread:

you would think that, but a LOT of the Left either seem to live in a bubble, are treated like un-thinking ants or have become so de-politicised that they can't ponder why so many of the British Left's endevours end in failure

many of the problem facing the Left are similar to any organisation, decide what you're trying to put over, use various methods to reach your target audience (I hope you like the PR speak!), expand, build up structures and increase influence in chosen areas, etc

but without a degree of reflection and the willingness to listen and think, nothing comes of all these negative experiences as another generation of socialists are shoved thru the mill, until the next Fresher's Faire

you'll notice one aspect of that bubble existence, how posters at SU blog are unfamiliar with the idea of ENGAGING with the point's of others, rather they descend into slanging matches, even over simple things

until those poor habits are un-learnt not much will change, and the REAL danger of the BNP growing won't diminish

Happens here.

Happens in work places too.

Human nature?


...well when something is seen as "work" anyway.

 

[belboid]

It hasn't been a bone of contention, except for a couple of really sad twats, everyone agrees that the SWP never supported the troops being in Ireland, even if they didn't oppose them loudly enough for a couple of weeks. Any claim to the contrary is sheer tosh regurgitated by pathetic sectarians with no politics of their opwn to defend.

Lo and behold, here comes the ISG chief vomitter back again....

 

[chilango]

A thread about the future already descends into bickering about the past.

*shrugs*

So what will happen next then folks?

Wot I pasted a coupla pages back.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

It hasn't been a bone of contention, except for a couple of really sad twats, everyone agrees that the SWP never supported the troops being in Ireland, even if they didn't oppose them loudly enough for a couple of weeks. Any claim to the contrary is sheer tosh regurgitated by pathetic sectarians with no politics of their opwn to defend.

Lo and behold, here comes the ISG chief vomitter back again....

The IS refused to reinstate the "British Troops Out" position that they removed from Socialist Worker on 17th August 1969, until May 1970 - not 'a couple of weeks'.

I don't normally take a lot of notice of Matgamna and his acolytes these days but he was a member of the IS National Committee then and all this was published in the 1970s by him - and on this point he is accurate.

 

[belboid]

If anyone in the world ever was physically capable of reading through an entire copy of International Viewpoint without dying of boredom, I'm sure we'd find many similar instances of FG's lot supporting imperialist intervention in all corners of the globe, in the same way IS 'supported' troops in Ireland.

 

[chilango]

yeah, but, really, who cares?

 

[butchersapron]

b and FG get thee both to a life before the swp thread.

 

[belboid]

I was all done anyway, honest guv, that was me last word.....

 

[Fisher_Gate]

If anyone in the world ever was physically capable of reading through an entire copy of International Viewpoint without dying of boredom, I'm sure we'd find many similar instances of FG's lot supporting imperialist intervention in all corners of the globe, in the same way IS 'supported' troops in Ireland.

Try and name one 'similar instance'?

(Your best bet is to try the voting of Italian senators on troops in Afghanistan by the way, but I think you'll struggle to win that argument).

If however you are looking for 'similar instances' by the IS/SWP, you could try Korea?

What you forget is that in the 1960s, the IS wasn't the 'hardened bolshevik cadre' the SWP try to present their continuity as today. It was a far more 'soft left' amorphous grouping, opposed to 'Leninism', that tried to create left unity around four vague points that did not even mention socialism. Socialist Worker used to be called "Labour Worker" FFS!

The sharp left turn and the adoption of 'Leninism' (actually a bastardised version of Stalinism) took place in the early 1970s and involved purges of any oppositionists opposed to that line.

 

[Yelkcub]

Perhaps the last SWP thread?

Following on from this thread, it seems clear that the SWP is in its final thrashings around and if it survives it will be as a much more marginal group on the left.

This does raise a few questions, some of interest to the wider Left, others of a more trainspotting nature.

Will the rump turn into a deluded cult like the WRP, or hang on to a vestige of its tradition and try to reflect a little as to its future role like the SP, or simply dissolve and move on a la the IMG?

Given the SWP will no longer be able to dominate campaigns, protests etc as it did throughout the 90s and first half of this decade, will another group step on up into the void? ...or will DIY, grassroots organising blossom like a thousand flowers? or will protests, demos etc. fade away a little too?

Is it time for all the little rump Trot groups to give up the ghost, dissolve themselves and use their energies, experience and talent to try and create something more relevent, a "new" way of trying to create a better world? or is this throwing the bay out with the bathwater and when the recession really kicks in we'll see a resurgence in socialist ideas as organised by the SP or Respect or PR or whoever?

Does the death of organised Leninism in the UK hearld a new 68 just around the corner with a new New Left about to burst onto the scene, or is it all a busted flush?

More importantly will ever see this many acronyms in one thread again?