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Life after the SWP?

frogwoman said:
its the idea that being in the vanguard means you know more than anyone else, that you're part of an "advanced layer" or whatever. Surely Marxists should constantly re evaluate their positions and not just assume that their theories are correct which is what a "higher level of consciousness" is basically saying, that they know best. It is not a very marxist idea anyway especially when you consider that you're constantly exposed to bourgeois ideology every day as well as the assumptions that living in a capitalist society creates. I mean fuck I know a fair bit about marxism but I still have my prejudices and still am a product of the society I live and there's probably loads of shit I'm thinking/doing wrong that I don't even know about.
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ABsoFUCKINGluteky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't think there is one word, any SWP member I've met, would disagree with. Well done! Excellent post!.
 
I have raised the topic on here many times, but is there anyone actually familiar with the Marxist historians claim, "there is no such thing as working class culture"? Very relevant, to the remarks of frog woman.
 
I don't think there's no such thing as working class culture? And what is culture anyway? At its most simplest loads of workplaces (or wherever) the people there have a shared history, shared banter, in-jokes, ways of doing stuff that arent dictated by management etc.
 
chilango said:
What?
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read what FW says
frogwoman said:
it's not the fact that people might have reactionary ideas or be more or less informed about stuff, its the idea that being in the vanguard means you know more than anyone else, that you're part of an "advanced layer" or whatever. Surely Marxists should constantly re evaluate their positions and not just assume that their theories are correct which is what a "higher level of consciousness" is basically saying, that they know best. It is not a very marxist idea anyway especially when you consider that you're constantly exposed to bourgeois ideology every day as well as the assumptions that living in a capitalist society creates. I mean fuck I know a fair bit about marxism but I still have my prejudices and still am a product of the society I live and there's probably loads of shit I'm thinking/doing wrong that I don't even know about.
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Is there anything you disagree with in there.
 
RMP3 - you seem to be on a mission to prove that the SWP's ideology is acceptable to all of us on here - anarchists, other Trotskyists, non-Leninist Marxists; anyone who calls themselves a socialist. To do this, you've reduced the SWP's ideology to a short list of vague notions, such as "listening to the working class." You've basically made "SWP socialism" so broad, so vague and so inclusive that it's an almost meaningless theory.

When people have tried to point out areas where they disagree with the SWP and their tradition (Bolshevism, Trotskyism), you've simply ignored these criticisms and quoted from articles by SWPers who offer more vague and incoherent views on the SWP's brand of socialism.

I don't know if you are being deliberately dishonest in your articulation of what the SWP think, or you are simply ignorant of it. The SWP is a Trotskyist party who stands in the tradition of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky. In all their historical work, they have praised the Bolshevik Party and their actions right up until Lenin's death. The SWP, if it stands in the tradition of Lenin and Trotsky, must offer a defence of their actions.
 
mk12 said:
RMP3 - you seem to be on a mission to prove that the SWP's ideology is acceptable to all of us on here - anarchists, other Trotskyists, non-Leninist Marxists; anyone who calls themselves a socialist. To do this, you've reduced the SWP's ideology to a short list of vague notions, such as "listening to the working class." You've basically made "SWP socialism" so broad, so vague and so inclusive that it's an almost meaningless theory.

When people have tried to point out areas where they disagree with the SWP and their tradition (Bolshevism, Trotskyism), you've simply ignored these criticisms and quoted from articles by SWPers who offer more vague and incoherent views on the SWP's brand of socialism.

I don't know if you are being deliberately dishonest in your articulation of what the SWP think, or you are simply ignorant of it. The SWP is a Trotskyist party who stands in the tradition of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky. In all their historical work, they have praised the Bolshevik Party and their actions right up until Lenin's death. The SWP, if it stands in the tradition of Lenin and Trotsky, must offer a defence of their actions.
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yes I take that on the chin. I deliberately think, there is more that unites us, than divides us. I truly do consider all the left revolutionaries, and EVEN the reformists my comrades.
Having said that, I am aware of fundamental differences. Differences that mean we will never see things in exactly the same way.
Someone above said, we essentially see the things the same way, just different emphasis. I actually believe that if people could be a little bit more open minded , it would not be happy chappy all work together, but we could learn to accept different approaches at coming at the same problem as good thing, not a bad thing.
But, that is a laudable aim. Perhaps we can't even achieve that. But what's the point in not having honest conversations? what is this place, just talking shop. It's not important, it's just chit chat, so why not be honest?
there is nothing wrong with discussing what divides us, but why is it wrong to discuss the 99% that unites?

I love FW's post. It captures so much 'truth'. And if you could just see it from my point of view , it might be interesting. no more no less.

Ground hog day I know. :D
 
Rmp3, you love the SWP, fine. So join. Stop trying to persuade us its acceptable. Most of us have real experience of the party and no wish to return. Stop boring everybody with this crap.
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
yes I take that on the chin. I deliberately think, there is more that unites us, than divides us. I truly do consider all the left revolutionaries, and EVEN the reformists my comrades.
Having said that, I am aware of fundamental differences. Differences that mean we will never see things in exactly the same way.
Someone above said, we essentially see the things the same way, just different emphasis. I actually believe that if people could be a little bit more open minded , it would not be happy chappy all work together, but we could learn to accept different approaches at coming at the same problem as good thing, not a bad thing.
But, that is a laudable aim. Perhaps we can't even achieve that. But what's the point in not having honest conversations? what is this place, just talking shop. It's not important, it's just chit chat, so why not be honest?
there is nothing wrong with discussing what divides us, but why is it wrong to discuss the 99% that unites?

I love FW's post. It captures so much 'truth'. And if you could just see it from my point of view , it might be interesting. no more no less.

Ground hog day I know. :D
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You sound like a vicar.
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
I actually believe that if people could be a little bit more open minded , it would not be happy chappy all work together, but we could learn to accept different approaches at coming at the same problem as good thing, not a bad thing.
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ResistanceMP3 said:
there is nothing wrong with discussing what divides us, but why is it wrong to discuss the 99% that unites?
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Yeah, you sound like youre heading up a rainbow coalition. :D
 
chilango said:
The SWP is finished.

RMP3 has managed to avoid that point right from the OP.
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well having that discussion, is a bit like the Monty Python dead parrot discussion, in reverse. Four years later, still new threads discussing the end of the SWP. They may be in the terminal situation, it may not, it certainly hasn't ceased to exist. We are certainly not in a situation of "life after the SWP".
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
well having that discussion, is a bit like the Monty Python dead parrot discussion, in reverse. Four years later, still new threads discussing the end of the SWP. They may be in the terminal situation, it may not, it certainly hasn't ceased to exist. We are certainly not in a situation of "life after the SWP".
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Yes we are.

It's dead.

What now?
 
frogwoman said:
I'm glad you think my post captures truth rmp3, im not even sure what that is lol.
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yes there was a genuflect to that with the '' when I said 'truth'. So I know what you're saying.

But it is a good post, dialectical. The whole truth, captures the contradiction, and the motion.
 
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